Diagnosing an issue

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I have an older HP Z2 Mini G9 workstation desktop PC running Windows 11 23H2 that lately has been driving me batty. It will randomly stop responding.
[See the full post at: Diagnosing an issue]

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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Toa Of Justice, Perq, dataman1701, TechTango, PL1

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Susan,

Thanks for the diag software info.
I’d suspect if the power supply is starting to go, or the video card itself.

On the video card, one could clean off and apply new thermal paste. But that might be a bit of a stretch.

The software/firmware is always in question these days, since budgets just don’t allow thorough testing these days.  Have to worry about the CEO’s bonus…

 

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It’s such a tiny little workstation that I wouldn’t want to attempt to pry anything out and redo thermal paste.

https://www.storagereview.com/review/hp-z2-mini-g9-workstation-review

I know my stress limitations, and this is a unit not built for easy workability and no cuss words.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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Myst

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Susan Bradley wrote:

It will randomly stop responding.

I was getting an occasional Blue Screen out of nowhere on one of my machines. I used that BSOD utility you mentioned (Nirsoft Blue screen of death tool) and it pointed me to a network issue. This MB does not have WIFI and I had an old WIFI USB dongle plugged in for “in case”. There really is no need for WIFI on this device (it’s hard wired) so I just unplugged the dongle. I’m now waiting to see if the BSOD comes up again. I’s been 11 days, so fingers crossed!

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dataman1701, TechTango

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PL1 wrote:

I was getting an occasional Blue Screen out of nowhere on one of my machines. I used that BSOD utility you mentioned (Nirsoft Blue screen of death tool) and it pointed me to a network issue. This MB does not have WIFI and I had an old WIFI USB dongle plugged in for “in case”. There really is no need for WIFI on this device (it’s hard wired) so I just unplugged the dongle. I’m now waiting to see if the BSOD comes up again. I’s been 11 days, so fingers crossed!

As a follow-up, this was NOT the cure. I just now had my computer idling, and I saw it go into a BSOD again. Per the Nirsoft BSOD Tool, it came up with the same “NETIO.SYS” error pointing again to the network driver.

So, this time, I did what I should have done the first time, I updated the Intel driver from Asus support. It updated the driver from 2016 to 2017. This as an I7-7700K with an ASUS PRIME B250M-C MB. (I know, it’s old, but it is an Old Stock New MB, in use for about two years.)

Hopefully this fixes the issue, or I might have to upgrade it sooner than expected.

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Doesn’t have to be network drivers, any driver that interact with the networking stack could be the cause. Check those motherboard utility and security drivers, downloading tools, firewalls, security suites, torrent clients, virtual drives…

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PL1

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Susan,

I’ll take this opportunity to emphasize the need for a robust IMAGE backup regime.

Often when this type of problem occurs I’ll take an image of the current system then go back and restore the last image of the C: drive (no need to mess with the data partition, yes not in C: but that’s another story) and see if the problem is still there. If not yes caused by an update somewhere. I’ll often go back a few generations, again yes I keep multiple generations of separate backup drives, the old belt and suspenders philosophy (philosophy sounds so much more intelligent than “old adage” doesn’t it?).

BTW: in the biweekly backup process for our 4 machines as I write this.

May the Forces of good computing be with you!

RG

PowerShell & VBA Rule!
Computer Specs

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dataman1701, TechTango

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Macrium reflect workstation backup to a central location.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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PL1

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On a relative side-line:

Software is not a finished product. Every month on any platform we get little bits of updated code that fix this, or enhance that. Especially with firmware and video drivers, often this code more than any other interacts with the additional kernel protections that Microsoft keeps adding along the way…

My 1st question would be:
Are the drivers Windows Hardware Quality Labs (WHQL) Certified?

FWIW: When it comes to drivers, my preference is to use OEM WHQL Certified device drivers where possible, seconded by MSFT device drivers via WU over non-certified OEM drivers.(after all, MSFT has had long enough to sort the recogntion code faults to deliver correct drivers to the hardware)

From a NON-PC Gamer perspective:
Newer official non-WHQL Certified Graphics/ Video drivers may improve/ fix gaming problems although have been known to introduce new issues elsewhere in the OS outwith the gaming realm, particularly noticeable when a newer MSFT CU drops and issues arise later down the timeline.

Reading any device driver changelogs definitely helps in making a conscious decision for any home-user on how they use their PC.

By sticking to this ‘protective system regime’, I’ve not had issues with device drivers since the introduction of the xbox 360 when I stopped PC Gaming. YMMV
This experience is relative to Windows® 8.1, 10 and 11 on various devices.

Windows - commercial by definition and now function...

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PL1

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All official Nvidia drivers.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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capacitors do go bad over time – no rhyme or reason.

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Mark

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I wanted to let you know starting after the October CU for Win 11 23H2 we have seen similar issues across various computers. After installing the latest driver from Nvidia they have remained fixed. It has affected about 3% of our computers but it is a thing.

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Try this.  I might be an easy fix.
I use a 17″ Dell laptop and had a similar problem with it freezing.  Sometimes to a black screen.
The large laptop has two internal Samsung NVMe’s.  One is used as a bootable backup.  After having this “freeze” continue to reoccur through a few Microsoft updates. I decided to use the other drive as the primary.  The freezes went away!  It may have been a bad connection on the other drive, since it tests as good.
If you can try using a bootable backup or actually install a cloned drive, it may solve the problem.  At least, you would know it is or isn’t the NVMe drive.
Richard

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Bugcheck strings would be useful, use DriverView (Nirsoft) to find what drivers are loaded – exclude any ‘dump’ drivers and all MS/Windows drivers, any/all ‘utility’ software drivers are suspect though most are safe if up-to-date.

Time outs/wait periods are sometimes an issue with graphics-related crashes, where the CPU isn’t able to deliver the data required for a GPU call, sometimes it’s a ‘bad’ driver causing a logjam or corrupting data in memory.

Sometimes Reliability History can help, MS can sometimes offer the correct ‘fix’ if you allow data out.

Screenshots/details would be useful – much better than guessing games

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Microfix

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Apologies, I didn’t grab a screen shot of the actual nvidia driver it pointed to.  Sorry about that. It’s not my machine so I can only work on it after hours.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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satrow

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I have an old PC running Windows 11 21H2.
Sometimes it will freeze. I just have to do ctrl-alt-del and then hit ESC. No restart actually required. It could be worth trying that.

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I had a “client” long ago that purchased 4 refurbished Pentium computers against my advice. There was a problem with one which I don’t remember, but the other belonged to the office manager which randomly froze, much to her chagrin. I was called to help and I determined from experience that it was probably a fault in the motherboard.

After much negotiation with the vendor, the client finally exchanged the faulty computers for new refurbished computers which solved the problem.

Sometimes the problem is not faulty software.  Sometimes it means breaking out the multimeter, the logic probe,  the schematics and the soldering/de-soldering equipment (if you are going to fix it yourself).

Chips do go bad.

Mark

 

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Tangentially off-topic :
why is it that when a Microsoft Windows Operating system does a BSOD dump, you have to go to a 3rd party to get a decode tool?

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The idea is that bsod analysis shouldn’t need to occur and it’s a high level analysis.  Microsoft engineers don’t use this but use Windows debug tools.  Back in the day I would jump through the hoops to download the Windows sdk and install the debugger analysis tools.

Debugging Tools for Windows – Windows drivers | Microsoft Learn

This third party tool is just way easier and if you don’t do bsod analysis all the time and more “one offs” just a lot easier.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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ROBERT OVERBERG, TechTango, Perq, PL1

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Timely post, thank you Susan. I have a very similar problem – occasional crashes with no apparent cause. I ran the NirSoft tool you mention and all it gave me was “ntoskrnl.exe” with some other parameters that didn’t, to me, seem to point to anything. I have a Nvidia Quadro P1000 so I tried finding the drivers on the Nvidia download site and found it totally confusing. I did find an updated driver on the Dell drivers page for my Precision 3431, but had to do it manually because for some odd reason neither the Dell Command Update nor the Support Assist tool will run on my machine! Anyway, I installed the driver I found, carefully updating the Intel graphics driver first, as instructed, and will wait to see what happens. So far, so good…

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peterb wrote:

I ran the NirSoft tool you mention and all it gave me was “ntoskrnl.exe” with some other parameters that didn’t, to me, seem to point to anything.

It gives you something to search for. When I searched for ntoskrnl.exe the first thing that came up was: “Ntoskrnl.exe (Short for Windows NT operating system kernel,)”.

Take a look at the reply to this post: https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/ntoskrnlexe-causing-crashes-and-bsod-even-in-safe/73055535-78e0-417e-9b64-d9c91bc7997b

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peterb wrote:

I ran the NirSoft tool you mention and all it gave me was “ntoskrnl.exe” with some other parameters that didn’t, to me, seem to point to anything.

Hi peterb:

See my 13-Oct-2023 post in bsfinkel’s Unknown BSOD about Nirsoft’s BlueScreenView vs Windows Debugger (WinDbg). I’ve used BlueScreenView to diagnose BSODs caused by outdated graphics drivers but in many cases where it isn’t obvious which driver or module loaded in the crash stack is directly responsible for the BSOD (e.g., like a Windows system file like ntoskrnl.exe) I usually recommend that users post their dump files in BleepingComputer’s Windows Crashes and Blue Screen of Death (BSOD) Help and Support board where a trained specialist can perform a free diagnosis with WinDbg.
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Dell Inspiron 15 5584 * 64-bit Win 10 Pro v22H2 build 19045.5247 * Firefox v134.0.0 * Microsoft Defender v4.18.24090.11-1.1.24090.11 * Malwarebytes Premium v5.2.4.157-1.0.5116 * Macrium Reflect Free v8.0.7783

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satrow, PL1

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@PL1 – thanks but I should have been more specific

Susan said it gave her an indication of a suspect driver, but in my case it did not, so if it fails again I’ll have to go the route of requesting a dump analysis, I’ve also tried the Blue Screen Troubleshooter but that didn’t help either.

 

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Hi lmacri – good info, thank you! I was not aware of the dump analysis option you mention so that’s most helpful – I had visions of struggling to get hold of MS Support for that!

I think my main problem is not really knowing which drivers need to be updated when, thanks to the Dell tools being non-functional on my PC. I usually just check every few months and see what’s newer than the versions I have installed. It’s a bit “hit and miss” but I’m not aware of a better way. I also have added a Thunderbolt controller to the machine after original purchase – I got it from Dell and it is specifically compatible with the 3431 but I have a sneaking feeling it might be the cause of the blockage. Unfortunately removing it to try testing would be a pretty big job as it supports my fast external backup drive. I’m hoping this intermittent crash will just go away, and I’ve warned my PC that it can be replaced with a Mac, so perhaps it will behave now.

 

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Cybertooth

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peterb wrote:

I think my main problem is not really knowing which drivers need to be updated when, thanks to the Dell tools being non-functional on my PC.

Hi peterb:

One word of caution when installing driver updates on any Dell computer. There are multiple reports in the Dell forum from users who experienced a variety of issues after installing a newer “generic” graphics driver from the manufacturer (e.g., Intel, AMD, NVIDIA,etc.) that was not certified for their Dell BIOS. For example, see fabioluzo’s 01-May-2024 Vostro 3520 Keeps Crashing, who had their dump files analyzed with WinDbg <here> on the BleepingComputer site and solved their BSODs by rolling back to the custom Intel and NVIDIA graphics drivers recommended on the support page for their Vostro 3520.
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See my 02-Jan-2024 post in WjSturgis’ Support Assist will not run in the Dell forum about the current status of the buggy Dell SupportAssist v4.6.3. If you are using the Dell | Command Update v5.4.0 (or Dell | Command Update for Windows Universal v5.4.0 UWP app) utility listed on your Precision 3431 support page also note that Dell is aware of issues that might occur when SupportAssist v4.x and Dell | Command Update v5.x are installed on the same machine (see employee DELL-Chris M’s 10-Jun-2024 SupportAssist, “Hardware scan fails”, “We ran into a problem”).

If you browse to https://www.dell.com/support/home/en-us/products and enter your unique Service Tag it should take you to the Precision 3431 support page at https://www.dell.com/support/product-details/en-us/product/precision-3431-workstation/, and the Drivers & Downloads tab should display a filtered list of software and hardware drivers that match your system components (NOTE: This filtered list includes optional software and/or hardware drivers that might already be installed on your computer – your current driver versions are listed in Windows’ Device Manager). You could try clicking the blue Check for Updates button on that Drivers & Downloads tab but if the current SupportAssist v4.6.3 (rel. 24-Dec-2024) isn’t running correctly that online check for updates will likely fail as well.

If you need help with Dell  SupportAssist I’d suggest you start a new topic in the SupportAssist for PCs board in the Dell forum so we don’t take this AskWoody thread too far off-topic.
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Dell Inspiron 15 5584 * 64-bit Win 10 Pro v22H2 build 19045.5247 * Firefox v134.0.0 * Microsoft Defender v4.18.24090.11-1.1.24090.11 * Malwarebytes Premium v5.2.4.157-1.0.5116 * Macrium Reflect Free v8.0.7783 * Dell Update for Windows Universal v5.4.0 * My Dell v2.2.6.0 * Fusion Service 2.2.14.0

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satrow, windbg

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The other old trick I would do with a BSOD, re-seat the memory.
This in the planning of do least amount of harm in troubleshooting.
Hope you get this resolved soon.
Intermittent problems are the worst, you never its fixed for a long time.

 

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jniffen wrote:

Intermittent problems are the worst, you never its fixed for a long time.

Not if you go about the diags the right way.

Stop guessing and jumping to conclusions.

Logs, crash dump analysis, MSInfo32, Reliability history and experience all have their parts to play.

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