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  • Cut through the bafflegab of Windows 10 versions, branches, updates and builds

    Home Forums AskWoody blog Cut through the bafflegab of Windows 10 versions, branches, updates and builds

    This topic contains 84 replies, has 18 voices, and was last updated by  anonymous 8 months ago.

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    • #94046 Reply

      woody
      Da Boss

      Here’s a very down-to-earth description of Windows 10 and how it’s being upgraded. Coming soon on InfoWorld.
      [See the full post at: Cut through the bafflegab of Windows 10 versions, branches, updates and builds]

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #94060 Reply

      anonymous

      Journalists must love MS for Windows 10 – so much confusion you can write a few articles every day :).

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #94097 Reply

        fp
        AskWoody Lounger

        This is actually a much, much more serious issue than a jest.

        I once wrote in the preface to my book that there is an incentive for complexity entrenched in the IT industry. Simple, easy to use things do not require so much training, books, consulting, articles and so on — they are not as profitable as confusion as complexity. Given this coupled with the fact that publishers and editors are not in the business of selling content to readers, but readers to advertisers who create the confusion and complexity, why should anybody expect journalists to criticize the advertisers rather than “helping readers” with the mess they create? Witness Woody’s instinct to transfer much of his stuff here after Infoworld was acquired.

        The trade media has a HUGE inherent conflict of interest.

        • This reply was modified 8 months, 1 week ago by  fp.
        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #94098 Reply

      PhotM
      AskWoody Lounger

      Have I got this right???:

      What you need to know about Windows 10 versions and lifespan
      http://www.infoworld.com/article/3169615/microsoft-windows/what-you-need-to-know-about-windows-10-versions-and-lifespan.html

      Your title changed ot are they 2 different ones? :confused:

      ----------------------------------------

      1. Tower Totals: 2xSSD ~512GB, 2xHHD 4TB, Memory 32GB

      SSDs: 6xOS Partitions, 2xW8.1 Main & Test, 2x10.0 Test, Pro, x64

      CPU i7 2600 K, SandyBridge/CougarPoint, 4 cores, 8 Threads, 3.4 GHz
      Graphics Radeon 6880, Neither Over Clocked

      2xMonitors Asus DVI, Sony 55" UHD TV HDMI

      1. NUC 5i7 2cores, 4 Thread, Memory 8GB, 3.1 GHz, M2SSD 140GB
      1xOS W8.1 Pro, NAS Dependent, Same Sony above.

      -----------------

      Best Regards,

      Crysta

      • #94100 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        Sorry, I was away (scheduled doctors appointment). Yes, they’re the same article.

        Little known fact: Almost all authors have the titles of their articles (the “hed”s) modified by editors during the editorial process. Happens all the time.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #94106 Reply

          PhotM
          AskWoody Lounger

          That’s what I was calking it up to but I didn’t want to dictate….

          ----------------------------------------

          1. Tower Totals: 2xSSD ~512GB, 2xHHD 4TB, Memory 32GB

          SSDs: 6xOS Partitions, 2xW8.1 Main & Test, 2x10.0 Test, Pro, x64

          CPU i7 2600 K, SandyBridge/CougarPoint, 4 cores, 8 Threads, 3.4 GHz
          Graphics Radeon 6880, Neither Over Clocked

          2xMonitors Asus DVI, Sony 55" UHD TV HDMI

          1. NUC 5i7 2cores, 4 Thread, Memory 8GB, 3.1 GHz, M2SSD 140GB
          1xOS W8.1 Pro, NAS Dependent, Same Sony above.

          -----------------

          Best Regards,

          Crysta

    • #94105 Reply

      Clairvaux
      AskWoody Lounger

      It’s important to understand that all four of these versions of Win10 are completely separate, like Win7 and Win8 before them. You can’t mix and match. Microsoft gave them similar-sounding names, but they’re as different as dolphins and dodos.

      In-cre-dible. I’m watching this from afar, since I’m a 7er, but that’s what happens when Microsoft wants to “simplify” Windows, eh ? So 1603 is easier to comprehend than Windows 7 Professional, right ? You’re supposed to “upgrade” to Windows 10, then you fire and forget, and Nadella takes care of everything ?

    • #94110 Reply

      anonymous

      I want to use Microsoft’s Media Creation Tool to create a bootable usb drive containing Windows 10. How do I know which version of Windows is being transferred to the usb drive? I prefer to have the Anniversary Update version 1607.

      https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10
      Tom Harmon

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #94120 Reply

        PhotM
        AskWoody Lounger

        Have a go at the process and you will see how it handles things. you will know what your downloading.

        My suggestion is, put the ISO on disk in a .iso file. that will give you allot of flexibility for handle your ISO from vDVD(Virtual DVD that can be Mounted in memory with Right Click on the ISO) and other ways.
        One can put it on a USB Drive or other Bootable device after with, Rufus, an invaluable Tool for ISO’s.

        Rufus – Create bootable USB drives the easy way
        http://rufus.akeo.ie/

        ----------------------------------------

        1. Tower Totals: 2xSSD ~512GB, 2xHHD 4TB, Memory 32GB

        SSDs: 6xOS Partitions, 2xW8.1 Main & Test, 2x10.0 Test, Pro, x64

        CPU i7 2600 K, SandyBridge/CougarPoint, 4 cores, 8 Threads, 3.4 GHz
        Graphics Radeon 6880, Neither Over Clocked

        2xMonitors Asus DVI, Sony 55" UHD TV HDMI

        1. NUC 5i7 2cores, 4 Thread, Memory 8GB, 3.1 GHz, M2SSD 140GB
        1xOS W8.1 Pro, NAS Dependent, Same Sony above.

        -----------------

        Best Regards,

        Crysta

        2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #94261 Reply

        BobbyB
        AskWoody Lounger

        @tom Harmon you should probably get offered Win10 home/Pro as both come bundled on the .iso that you’ll make. Now this depends on your machine. Generally if you have Win7 Pro and up Win 8.1 Pro and up you will get Win10 Pro version any other version you will get Home/core The install .iso should make the selection. If you can remember which version your machine came with and the Key is an OEM key (stored on the BIOS) Win 10 will find it and activate and install accordingly. If you it doesent activate you may have to enter the Key manually in which case a bios key utility will find the key for you there, lots around Belarc, Magic Jellybean etc. I would advise doing this before you either install or upgrade to Windows 10. Please note that there’s a good chance it wont activate if the machine came with any other software/OS from new except Win10, 8.1, 7, (cant say about Win8 as never had it but there’s a good chance it will) Vista and before I would say its a definite no. You may get lucky and M$ will activate it regardless the Digital activation thing is hit & Miss at best. OBTW you’ll need to connect to the internet for that so if you want to modify your new installation to your preference with updates i.e. yeah or nay best to do it offline hope this works for ya 🙂

        PS when you get your made .iso follow @photm‘s instructions and use “lil Rufus” an awesome tool.
        PPS sorry re-read you will get the 1607 Ann. Ver. until 17th of next month or the month after there’s still/was some debate about that lately. I was going to suggest a clean install (which is may favourite) but I am sure you’ll have your own preference’s. I am not sure of your setup etc and I really don’t want to lead you astray 🙂

        • This reply was modified 8 months, 1 week ago by  BobbyB.
      • #94308 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        How do I know which version of Windows is being transferred to the usb drive?

        If you create the USB stick right now, you’ll get 1607. But it will need to be updated immediately, to get the latest build for 1607.

    • #94126 Reply

      Noel Carboni
      AskWoody MVP

      Well written, Woody.

      From 10+ years lifespan to 2 years. But it’s even worse than that – presuming the lifespan of each new release is roughly the same, each new version will “expire” less than a year after the prior one expired.

      Does ANYONE who needs computing for serious work think that’s okay? Or even workable?

      Given a 3 year release cycle and a 10 year support lifespan, in the past one could skip a version on a given machine if that was prudent, even TWO versions in a pinch. And lo and behold it WAS prudent occasionally.

      Now, you *might* get 2 years on a given system if it happened to have been upgraded right when that Windows 10 version was released.

      Newsflash, Microsoft, we need to do work on our computers for a while after futzing around with them for months to get your operating system working. Life is NOT all about configuring each new version of Windows.

      Seriously, I’ve put polish on Windows installations literally for a year or more before they were settled down into something worth using. Then used them for years more. Now we don’t even get that year.

      Business use has been the cornerstone of Microsoft’s success, no? What are they smoking in Redmond?

      -Noel

      4 users thanked author for this post.
    • #94128 Reply

      lurks about
      AskWoody Lounger

      W10 strikes me as having excessive complexity about sub-versioning and support options. There seems to be enough confusion and chaos to keep the average and many knowledgeable users thoroughly confused.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #94129 Reply

      Noel Carboni
      AskWoody MVP

      Furthering my “rant” above, I actually HAVE been polishing up each Windows 10 release for my particular business use (software engineering) – even though I’ve not chosen to adopt it for my hardware systems.

      On average – I’ve kept notes – it has taken 5 to 6 months to get each one in order.

      That’s based on installing each new version when it’s released to the public. Let’s knock a couple of months off that by hopping on the Current Branch for Business and it still means that each new release, now running about every 9 months, will need half its lifetime to get into shape to be worth using.

      It has always taken months to get a version of Windows into shape. Many businesses didn’t even CONSIDER adopting a new version until after the first Service Pack – remember that?

      4 months of setting up and polishing a configuration for a purpose was workable when the usable life was 36 months – 11%. But half the lifetime of the OS? Seriously?

      This isn’t theory. I’ve BEEN THROUGH IT with all the Windows 10 releases so far.

      Microsoft’s mistake with the whole concept of WaaS is that they believe they deliver something worth using right out of the box. That has NEVER been the case, and – given they’ve laid off their professional testing people and are oriented more and more now to fun ‘n games – is arguably LESS the case now than ever before.

      -Noel

      5 users thanked author for this post.
      • #94428 Reply

        b
        AskWoody Lounger

        Why does it take 4/5/6 months to tweak settings?

        • #94867 Reply

          Noel Carboni
          AskWoody MVP

          Why does it take 4/5/6 months to tweak settings?

          You apparently have little connection to the tweaking community.

          Why? Because Windows isn’t complete for my needs until it can be reconfigured and augmented with 3rd party software in ways that Microsoft doesn’t see fit to support.

          Windows 10 desktop integration and usability completely stinks without a bunch of changes and 3rd party software. Not all of that software is ready and stable right away after Windows is released. Some of it takes months to be polished up by the authors. Some of it I have to write myself.

          Microsoft undoes things with each new release, and discovering them all isn’t easy. For example, I choose not to run ANY Apps. Microsoft is busily making it harder and harder to remove them all. Sorry; it’s my choice. It takes some time to figure out how. I remove a lot of other junk that Microsoft’s loaded it up with too, and the details have to be worked out.

          It also takes time to test and determine which are the settings that deliver proper performance and reliable operation.

          And let’s talk about privacy – I don’t accept that Windows has to send anything about what I’m doing to anyone online. It takes time to ferret all that out and put a muzzle on it.

          Microsoft doesn’t deliver perfect software out of the box (hence the .693 part of 14393.693). That’s the part I’m willing to knock off by choosing the CBB, but the reality is that it’s not so easy. I’d still have to start doing the work on the .0 version so that I’d have a good configuration ready for the promotion to CBB.

          From where I sit Windows has a really good kernel, and Explorer can be pretty good to use, but the garbage Microsoft has been hanging all over the system has to be cleared away to get to a tight, slick set of integrated software that promotes real work.

          At one time Microsoft provided a whole lot of configurability to support this. Now that’s just evaporating and it seems all they’re interested in doing is being an App Store and loading the system so up with junkware that even a powerful computer is challenged.

          My Windows 10 configuration, just to be equivalently functional as my Windows 8.1 config, and my Windows 7 config before that, has to be ABSOLUTELY:

          • Secure.
          • Lean.
          • Private.
          • Reliable.
          • Elegant.
          • Efficient.
          • Productive.
          • Under control.

          If you think Microsoft even gets CLOSE to that out of the box then you may not realize what Windows on a modern computer system is really capable of.

          Given that I’ve ALREADY achieved all of the above and then some to my satisfaction with each of the older operating systems, I have no reason to stop short or lower my expectations for a new system.

          You might wonder if I’m eccentric or have unreasonable expectations or want weird things from an OS. Nope. I’m a career software engineer and businessman who just wants what everyone wants: An OS that does what I want and need to get my work done with adeptness and excellence.

          I’ll wager I’ve accomplished that as well as anyone, and I can tell you that Windows 10 out of the box has been moved further from that ideal than any other Windows system ever released. And there’s no end to the madness at Microsoft in sight, so I believe Windows 10 will ultimately fail.

          I used to think that Windows would never be a bad system for software engineering, because Microsoft’s own people have to use it to develop their own software and would of course keep it solid for that. It didn’t occur to me that they’d just stop developing good software.

          I’d love to see how tweaked some of the systems inside Microsoft are.

          -Noel

          2 users thanked author for this post.
          • #94870 Reply

            ch100
            AskWoody MVP

            @Noel Carboni

            I’d love to see how tweaked some of the systems inside Microsoft are.

            What I can tell you is that all presenters at Microsoft conferences/seminars do not even tweak to show hidden folders or hidden extensions. There have to use Windows as is out-of-the-box when they deliver their presentations.

    • #94150 Reply

      anonymous

      IOW, for most Win 10 users, they hv to reinstall Win 10 with newer versions about every 8 to 24 months, if they wanna remain supported by M$ until EOL in 2025. EOL is a minimum 10 years from release date.
      In comparison, for Win 7/8.1 users, they do not hv to reinstall Win 7/8.1, in order to remain supported by M$ until EOL in 2020/2023.

      Cptr dummies will likely hv a handful upgrading or reinstalling their Win 10 Home to newer versions about every 8 to 24 months bc of various upgrading problems/issues, as illustrated at answersdotmicrosoftdotcom.
      And some “experts” claim that M$ created Win 10 specially to help cptr dummies, eg mandatory auto-updates and upgrades.

      • #94172 Reply

        Noel Carboni
        AskWoody MVP

        Your mention of “Cptr dummies” got me to thinking…

        Microsoft seems to be catering to a crowd that messes up their Windows installation inside of 6 months and thinks the OS requires reinstallation over and over again. They probably demand most of the attention of the service organization or the answers forum.

        Some of us don’t do that. A lot of us I think.

        Some of us maintain our systems so that they stay solid and run efficiently for the long term. On my own personal workstations going back well over 20 years I installed NT 3.5 once, NT 4 once, Win 2000 once, XP once, XP x64 once, Vista x64 once, Windows 7 x64 once, and Windows 8.1 x64 once. Once set up properly these systems “just worked” and allowed me to concentrate on the things I expected to DO with my computers.

        As it turns out on my Win 10 test system I’ve only actually needed to install Windows 10 x64 builds 10240 once, 10586 once, and 14393 once too… And now we’re about to get a fourth one – inside of 2 years!

        All this boils down to Microsoft “dumbing down” everything about Windows so that it can’t rise above what the lowest common denominator user uses it for!

        -Noel

        2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #94184 Reply

          anonymous

          Noel says
          Some of us maintain our systems so that they stay solid and run efficiently for the long term.

          This should apply esp for cptr dummies.

          When cptr dummies buy new cptrs, they want their cptrs to run stably for the long term with minimal intervention from them, eg being dumb-strucked by updating and/or upgrading bugs or the need to reinstall the OS.

          • #94204 Reply

            James Bond 007
            AskWoody Lounger

            This should apply esp for cptr dummies.

            When cptr dummies buy new cptrs, they want their cptrs to run stably for the long term with minimal intervention from them, eg being dumb-strucked by updating and/or upgrading bugs or the need to reinstall the OS.

            Agreed. However, with Windows 10 Home and even Pro, that is no longer possible. As Noel said, “dummies” will also have to deal with reinstallations every 6-9 months. And if there are problems (1607 told us there WILL be problems), how are they going to deal with that?

            Is Microsoft purposely angering their customers (home and business) and trying to drive them away? I would have thought it impossible just a few years ago but the current Microsoft leadership under Satya Nadella seems to me to be doing just that.

            Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

            2 users thanked author for this post.
            • #94254 Reply

              fp
              AskWoody Lounger

              Here’s a scenario: What if MS wants to use the unpaid devuggers to construct some version of Win10 that will be put in the cloud as Win as service and is using the process to make it so confusing and difficult for users to keep their personal copies of Win that they’ll dump them and subscribe to it?

              Crazy? The only reason I would doubt it is that I am not sure Nadella is smart enough for that, but you never know where the evil ones will go.

            • #94473 Reply

              ch100
              AskWoody MVP

              It is done with the purpose to prepare end-users to understand that the only way to have a secure and up to date system is to have it maintained by experts.
              And here comes the Cloud to save us…

          • #94233 Reply

            anonymous

            @ James

            More like M$’s excessive greed caused them to shoot themselves in the foot. The business model of selling 10-year Win 7/8.1 licenses, esp OEM & Ent Volume Licenses and 3-year Software Assurance/Insurance, was very profitable. There was no need for M$ to change that business model, except for their excessive greed. In the next few years, the Win 10 desktop OS may end up like Win 10 Mobile Lumia phones/Nokia and Windows RT(= Win 10 Cloud.?).

    • #94179 Reply

      James Bond 007
      AskWoody Lounger

      “Microsoft doesn’t want you to install the LTSB version.”

      “If you put Office on a machine or run a browser, Microsoft specifically doesn’t want you to use LTSB on that machine.”

      So Microsoft does not want me to use LTSB if I want to use Windows 10 “normally”?

      Luckily I don’t have to use Windows 10 and Office 2016 at this moment. But, if I were ever forced into Windows 10, it will be LTSB only. And I WILL use Office on it if I were ever forced to. As far as I can see, Office 2016 works fine on LTSB.

      So, sorry Microsoft, but these statements mean absolutely NOTHING to me.

      Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #94181 Reply

        Noel Carboni
        AskWoody MVP

        Is there relief in sight for licensing Enterprise for a small business? I remember a rumor a while back about a $7 per seat per month plan or something along those lines. I’d prefer a permanently licensed OS, but that’s not utterly out of the question if it means I can pick a Windows 10 LTSB version to optimize and use for a reasonable amount of time.

        -Noel

        • #94193 Reply

          anonymous

          @ Noel

          Seems subscription-based Win 10 Ent E3 & E5 are not allowed by M$ to convert to LTSB, ie only companies who hv bought or rented Win 10 Ent E3 & E5 Volume Licenses(= long term contracts) are allowed by M$ to convert to LTSB.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #94303 Reply

      anonymous

      “Microsoft doesn’t want you to install the LTSB version.”

      “If you put Office on a machine or run a browser, Microsoft specifically doesn’t want you to use LTSB on that machine.”

      Well, I’ve been using LTSB for about a year and like it very much. Currently using it with Office 2016, three browsers, SAP GUI, Symantec endpoint, malwarebytes, proprietary accounting software, sql mgmt studio, AD management tools, HyperV, etc, etc Contrary to some comments on the web it seems it supports DirectX 12 and the Geforce 960GTX (haven’t tried any games though).

      Now, if I’m understanding correctly, regardless of it being version 1507 (10240) it will still get security updates. I’m using WSUS to keep these “test” machines updated.

      • #94310 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        Now, if I’m understanding correctly, regardless of it being version 1507 (10240) it will still get security updates. I’m using WSUS to keep these “test” machines updated.

        That’s my understanding as well – but note that we’ve never seen this in action.

        MS has started drawing a distinction between LTSB 2015 (the new name) and LTSB 1507 (the old name). My guess – and this has been implied, but not stated as far as I know – is that future security patches, after May, will be directed to LTSB 2015, and not Win10 1507.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #94305 Reply

      anonymous

      Windows 10 ushered in a new method for numbering versions. It’s the “last version” of Windows and, as such, needs a different way to keep track of who’s on first.

      First of all, Woody, thanks for the concise article. There’s only one thing bothering me, however. And this applies to Eric’s recent article even more so. To anyone who states that “Windows 10 is the last version of Windows,” I ask the question: What happens to Windows in 2026 when Windows 10 goes out of support? Saying Windows 10 is the last version of Windows implies that there will be no more Windows after October 2025. Do we honestly think there will be no more Windows at that time? Maybe everyone will have converted to Linux or McIntosh or ChromeOS by then? Seems short-sided to me, as enterprises continue to run and rely on old software which will only run on Windows. Constrained budgets and other priorities make timely upgrades difficult. Some enterprises may still be having trouble getting completely off of mainframes in this day and age. What makes Microsoft think Windows can drop dead in October 2025?

      https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet

      • #94312 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        What happens to Windows in 2026 when Windows 10 goes out of support?

        I think it’s all marketing. You can bet yer bottom dollar there will be a different kind of Windows introduced long, long before 2026.

        Either that or Windows will be dead, and we won’t have anything to worry about. 🙂

        • This reply was modified 8 months ago by  woody.
        • #94552 Reply

          fp
          AskWoody Lounger

          Of course.

          Otherwise, pls explain what is the difference between win 10, 11, 12 and win 10 1511, 1607, 1703 and so on?

          Now, I am sure that there is a financial difference in how MS intends to use the latter instead of the former, which is probably what drove them to it, but no improvement for users.

          • #94558 Reply

            b
            AskWoody Lounger

            It’s a big improvement for users to get new features every eight months instead of every four years.

            • This reply was modified 8 months ago by  b.
            • #94815 Reply

              It’s a big improvement for users to get new features every eight months instead of every four years.

              That’s true, but it’s a two-edged sword. Some folks don’t want new features, yes?

            • #94848 Reply

              b
              AskWoody Lounger

              Some, yes. Most, no (including many business users; some of whom get impatient waiting the extra four months for CBB, which their enterprise has decreed.)

            • #94833 Reply

              anonymous

              @ b

              No, actually Win 10 users are getting new OS or versions every 8 months, which is like a car engine being changed to new ones every 8 months = major disruption to the lives of Win 10 cptr-owners and car-owners.

            • #94849 Reply

              b
              AskWoody Lounger

              Minor disruption, more like a quick oil change, for me at home and for many enterprise users I supported going from 1511 to 1607 (i.e all over in an hour).

            • #94892 Reply

              anonymous

              Well, not really – look at how Start menu, which is a BASIC functionality, has changed after AU. Same goes for Settings/Control Panel. Control Panel shortcut from right-click on Start is also to be removed with the new update (what I actually show is CUTTING on features, not adding them). It’s rather like putting your steering wheel in a different place each version. And looking at the direction it’s going – we’ll end with the steering wheel placed in the trunk.

              1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #95522 Reply

              b
              AskWoody Lounger

              Win then c gets Control Panel. Or type contr in Settings. Or pin it to Start or Taskbar. Is that really your best example of MAJOR disruption arriving with a feature update? Many users never use Control Panel.

              • This reply was modified 8 months ago by  b.
              • This reply was modified 8 months ago by  b.
              • This reply was modified 8 months ago by  b.
              • This reply was modified 8 months ago by  b.
              • This reply was modified 8 months ago by  b.
            • #95852 Reply

              anonymous

              It’s not about opening Contol Panel – but rather what you can or cannot find it and/or how deeply and illogically it’s been buried in Settings…

            • #94854 Reply

              anonymous
            • #94868 Reply

              b
              AskWoody Lounger

              What’s your point? Four people out of four million couldn’t get the update to install immediately?

            • #94885 Reply

              anonymous

              @ b

              Fyi, those 4 links that I found were on just the 2 latest pages at answers.microsoftdotcom, out of hundreds of pages about Win 10 updates, backups and recovery.
              IOW, there are many more reported borked Anniversary Updates/Version 1607 at that website and also many more unreported ones.
              Who wants to go thru all that new sheeet/changes every 8 months or so.!?

              As time goes by, eg in 2019 or 2020, problems with upgrading to new versions of Win 10 every 8 months or so will only get worse bc of older non-compatible hardware and software.

              1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #95529 Reply

              b
              AskWoody Lounger

              How do you know about many more unreported issues?

            • #95118 Reply

              Elly
              AskWoody Lounger

              Funny thing, I want my current features to work, not to have them disabled by “newer” or “better” things. I don’t want to have to reset my settings every four months, and I want settings that give me control over my operating system and computer. I want to decide which “features” to add and which to delete when I don’t want them. That would be better for me… Consumer Elly

              Elly-

              Win 7 Home, Group B

              1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #95138 Reply

              anonymous

              That pretty much summs up my approach.

            • #95530 Reply

              b
              AskWoody Lounger

              We’re talking about feature updates every eight months, not four, and most settings do not normally get changed.

              Were you able to select which new features to add with Service Packs for previous Windows versions?

            • #95855 Reply

              anonymous

              But you could decide if you want to install Service Pack or not. Now you can’t.

      • #94314 Reply

        anonymous

        I think you should read every time you activate Windows 10 it will be supported for ten years after its release and not Windows 10 is dead after 10 years. They say Windows 10 release in july 2015 will be desd in 2015, not all Windows 10?

        The idea is for oem you buy the computer with Windows then you have either 10 years or your machine breaks, whichever comes first or your hardware can’t keep up with the new features introduced.

      • #94316 Reply

        anonymous

        @ anonymous

        There will likely be 2 scenarios in 2025;

        (i) all Win 10 users would hv been converted by M$ into subscribers long b4 2025 is reached, eg by 2020 = no longer any need for the 2025 EOL = perpetual Win 10 licenses for users as long as their monthly/yearly subscriptions are up-to-date,

        (ii) all Win 10 licenses will expire in 2025 and users will hv to buy new Win 10 licenses with a new EOL of 2035, in order to remain activated after 2025 and until 2035.
        To prevent disruption post-2025, M$ will start offering Win 10 license renewal to users about 1 year b4 the deadline or EOL of 2025, ie in 2024.
        .
        .
        .
        From the recent past, when Win XP reached EOL in 2014, most Win XP users bought new licenses from M$ for Win 7 or Win 8.1 with new EOLs of 2020 or 2023. Scenario (ii) will be similar to what happened to Win XP in 2014.

    • #94383 Reply

      WildBill
      AskWoody Lounger

      W10 strikes me as having excessive complexity about sub-versioning and support options. There seems to be enough confusion and chaos to keep the average and many knowledgeable users thoroughly confused.

      And THAT’S why I haven’t upgraded to Windows 10 yet. Thanks to woody, I’m not Thoroughly confused, but with all the versions & cumulative updates, Win 10 doesn’t give me any faith that it’s reasonably stable. Given that Cortana & Edge would be the main reasons I upgrade, Edge still seems more buggy than IE 11, & if Cortana is more interested in advertising Microstuff to me than coordinating appointments & reminders, I’m in no hurry to upgrade from Win 8.1 to 10.

      Wild Bill Rides Again...

      • #94426 Reply

        b
        AskWoody Lounger

        How does Edge seem buggy?

        It’s the fastest browser available:

        http://www.zdnet.com/article/whats-2017s-fastest-windows-10-web-browser/

        • #94564 Reply

          fp
          AskWoody Lounger

          Have you heard of logic? It can be both–fast whenever it’s not buggy.

          • #94792 Reply

            b
            AskWoody Lounger

            I have heard of logic and try to use it whenever possible.

            I didn’t say it couldn’t be buggy because it was fast (and that’s why I separated the two things with a blank line).

            I’ve only noticed a couple of extremely minor bugs in Edge after using it exclusively for nearly two years, so I’m interested to know what any other regular users may have noticed it doing that it shouldn’t.

            Have you seen any Edge bugs in practice?

        • #94572 Reply

          Noel Carboni
          AskWoody MVP

          It’s the fastest browser available:

          That’s funny, it wasn’t fastest at doing what I find is important when I last tested it thoroughly (around the time of the release of Win 10 version 1607).

          For one of the most important things to me – how quickly a browser cold starts and allows me to check something online – Internet Explorer was the quickest to start. And from what I recall, the time for Edge to follow links between various web pages wasn’t the best of the lot either. I think Chrome took that prize.

          Has Microsoft accelerated the startup of Apps lately?

          -Noel

          • #94793 Reply

            b
            AskWoody Lounger

            I haven’t done my own tests, but the link I included says, “Chrome, once unquestionably the fastest of the fast, has fallen behind both Edge and Opera.” on the basis of four standard benchmarks.

          • #94818 Reply

            ch100
            AskWoody MVP

            I had this discussion about IE starting much faster than Firefox years ago, before Chrome even existed.
            The reason is that IE has always been integrated with the OS (at least since IE 4) and the core dlls launch at boot time. This has nothing to do with the user session, but the system components.
            Firefox on the other hand and supposedly Edge now, do not have this unfair advantage and take a while to load.
            This behaviour has nothing to do with browsing benchmarks, but contributes to the perceived user experience a lot.

            2 users thanked author for this post.
            • #94820 Reply

              Microfix
              AskWoody Lounger

              Yup IE was/is baked into the OS giving MS the monopoly in the browser wars years back, until they were forced to offer alternative browsers.
              Wonder why isn’t that still applicable today?

              | 2 PC W8.1 Pro x64 | | 2 PC Linux Hybrids x64 | | 1 PC Windows XP Pro x86 (offline) |
                No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created IT - AE
              1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #94894 Reply

          anonymous

          It does not support Microsoft’s own Silverlight (and I do need it). No comments :).

      • #94853 Reply

        ch100
        AskWoody MVP

        @wildbill

        Edge still seems more buggy than IE 11

        You are not forced to use Edge.
        IE11 is the same good old browser, but if you don’t like it, there are always Firefox, Chrome and Opera around to choose.

      • #94895 Reply

        anonymous

        Cortana is the number one reason I wouldn’t upgrade (luckily it does not work in Poland, so for the moment one reason less to worry about). And when you have Firefox or Opera – why bother with Edge?

    • #94392 Reply

      Noel Carboni
      AskWoody MVP

      I think you should read every time you activate Windows 10 it will be supported for ten years after its release

      There’s quite a disparity between “supported for two years” vs. “supported for ten years”.

      The only reason I can possibly imagine for all this being as obfuscated as it is comes down to incompetence. It’s not “brilliant Marketing” in any sense I can detect.

      It’s MOST CERTAINLY incompetent to mess with the very things that made Microsoft the go to company for business software – which is, make no mistake, where they’ve made the lion’s share of their money.

      -Noel

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #94563 Reply

        fp
        AskWoody Lounger

        See my other comment on smarts. MS is anything but smart. That’s why it must resort to their behavior to make money.

    • #94479 Reply

      Bill C.
      AskWoody Lounger

      It is done with the purpose to prepare end-users to understand that the only way to have a secure and up to date system is to have it maintained by experts.
      And here comes the Cloud to save us…

      This quote and the one above it by ‘fp’ hit the mail on the head. They are looking to take advantage of the new ‘disposable’ society. PC won’t work? Buy another. Tired of buying another? Let me sell you this cloud PC, simple as a television…

      It is the same thought process as buying a new smartphone every year…, and will be popular with the great masses who have no idea how anything works.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #94560 Reply

        fp
        AskWoody Lounger

        Yup.

        Which is why one of the top priorities of those who own the country — which now includes the CEOs of tech companies — is to destroy education. By which I don’t mean schooling, but ability to think critically and independently and appreciating being informed. Increasingly people are schooled, but uneducated–witness coding everywhere. This makes the public gullible, manpulable and unable to fight back collectively.

        It’s been extremely effective and for all practical pruposes the US is now a bona fide autocratic oligarchy, except only the oligarchs understan it.

    • #94485 Reply

      Bill C.
      AskWoody Lounger

      Now if MS was smart, they would offer two new versions and charge a premium price.

      MS Windows Classic LTS (Win7 GUI and Long Term Support for 8 years with a 4 year Service package);

      and the new Secure Windows Privacy Edition LTS with all telemetry having an in-the-OS, on-the-HDD, on/off switch (not a cloud console like Win10), and a EULA guaranteeing MS will not collect data or send ads via their OS and its components. Also with 8 year support with a 4 year Service Pack.

      I would pay at least as much as I paid for Win7Pro-64 for those options.

      5 users thanked author for this post.
      • #94556 Reply

        fp
        AskWoody Lounger

        If MS were smart, they would know how to make money by attracting users, not by fighting them tooth and nail.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #94819 Reply

        Microfix
        AskWoody Lounger

        wishful thinking on both counts..liked your idea though.

        | 2 PC W8.1 Pro x64 | | 2 PC Linux Hybrids x64 | | 1 PC Windows XP Pro x86 (offline) |
          No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created IT - AE
      • #95153 Reply

        Elly
        AskWoody Lounger

        So, they have a product. They have customers that want the product. But they don’t want customers to have the product because they want to exploit them. Definitely sounds like they have gone to the dark side.

        Elly-

        Win 7 Home, Group B

    • #94872 Reply

      Noel Carboni
      AskWoody MVP

      It’s a big improvement for users to get new features every eight months instead of every four years.

      I think you may be confusing operating system features with applications. There have been woefully few of the former, though lots of the latter (but not all that good).

      An operating system needs to be stable for years to be a foundation for the new applications the world develops – and those take time.

      Surely you don’t think Microsoft is developing applications of a class to rival what the best of the world is doing and has done.

      UselessCalculatorApp

      Regarding improvements to actual operating system features, please name some. I’m a pretty demanding computer user and I just haven’t seen a whole lot of positive change in that area.

      Where are improvements in color-management?
      Where are improvements in the file system?
      Where are improvements in the desktop and user interface?
      Where are improvements in system manageability?

      -Noel

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      • #94878 Reply

        ch100
        AskWoody MVP

        Where are improvements in the file system?

        ReFS maybe?!
        Not that many users know about it or use it.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReFS

        GPT partitioning scheme?
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GUID_Partition_Table

        Was there a need for them?
        I don’t know, others can come with arguments in favour or against.

        • #94886 Reply

          anonymous

          @ ch100

          Noel was referring to new OS features for new versions of Win 10 that hv been released every 8 months or so.
          The GUID Partition Table was implemented by M$ for Win 8 in 2012, similar to the ‘new’ Metro tiles.

      • #94888 Reply

        anonymous

        Noel, I have some explanation to do. I was the one that mentioned W10 is faster in some other thread, at least concerning games. Well, that is still true, but W10 is so unbearable I just bought Windows 8 yesterday :).

      • #95509 Reply

        b
        AskWoody Lounger

        No, I didn’t confuse features with apps; but I would include any useful new apps if they arrived in a feature update. If you’ve seen lots of new apps arrive with 1511 and 1607, which ones did you find disappointing?

        What version is your calculator? My Programmer calculator (10.1702.312.0) looks quite different to that. It seems to me that yours hasn’t been updated for more than 18 months. Perhaps you have store updates disabled? (Not sure how you would see new apps then though.) https://mspoweruser.com/windows-10-calculator-updated-with-new-features/

        Would you not accept that your needs and wishes may be quite different from most Windows users? How many would put color-management as a top priority for improvements in Windows 10?

    • #94871 Reply

      anonymous

      This link below may be a good development for those who wanna cut loose from M$-Windows and/or “cut through the bafflegab of Windows 10 versions, branches, updates and builds”,

      https://techspecs.blog/blog/2017/2/14/googles-not-so-secret-new-os

      I do not mind being interrupted by ads and/or data-mined for marketing revenue(= different from Win 10 ‘spyware’) if Google will give me free use of their Fuchsia OS and services. For many cptr users, the also-free Linux desktop OS just does not cut it.

      Keeping my fingers crossed for Google-Fuchsia OS.

      • #95537 Reply

        b
        AskWoody Lounger

        > “I do not mind being interrupted by ads and/or data-mined for marketing revenue(= different from Win 10 ‘spyware’) if Google will give me free use of their Fuchsia OS and services. ”

        Different because Google reads the content of your emails and files but Microsoft doesn’t?

        • #95561 Reply

          anonymous

          @ b

          The difference between Google’s coming very-likely-FREE Fuchsia OS and M$’s NON-FREE Win 10 OS is, I’d rather choose to not pay for the “privilege” of having my emails and files read by both of them.
          If both OS are as capable, <who> would choose to pay for the above “privilege”.

    • #94960 Reply

      Noel Carboni
      AskWoody MVP

      Where are improvements in the file system?

      ReFS maybe?!

      Windows 8 feature. I have a drive formatted with it on my Win 8.1 workstation (it’s possible through the WinRE environment to format a drive ReFS). Works great. Has for years!

      So how come we can’t create a boot volume with it? Or even format a data drive with it using the normal UI on Win 10? We have only stagnation since Windows 8.

      GPT Partitioning Scheme?

      That’s been around a long while, and available for bootable volumes since Windows 8, but I still can’t make a boot volume greater than 2 TB. Why? Because GPT partitioning is tied to UEFI (vs. BIOS) and UEFI is simply not available for my “old” workstation.

      Not a lot of Windows 10 innovation where it counts here. The state of the art of general purpose computing is not really being advanced by the development of “social networking Apps” and the like.

      -Noel

    • #94981 Reply

      AlexEiffel
      AskWoody Lounger

      May I add that if Microsoft was upgrading the underlying OS functions better instead of messing up the GUI because that flashes NEW to people’s face, it would help a lot? Also, if the added features were easy to disable as a whole when you don’t want them without having them so embedded in the system you risk breaking functionality, it would be nice too. If the new features on AU didn’t mean moving the old special folders like Documents to a different partition didn’t suddenly made Cortana unable to find your documents in her Best Match tab, it would also be less bad.

      New features every few months? New problems every few months. If most businesses waited for the first Service Pack to deploy in the past or often skipped a whole version of Windows, there was a good reason: stability, and for most, that trumps featuritis.

      We need a better separation between the basic OS and the features/apps parts. I have no problem with upgrades that would add non-disruptive basic OS functions like REFS, support for newer hardware, things that don’t change the user experience, if done properly. I don’t even care if you introduce 3D apps I can easily uninstall without making some other OS function relying on it break if I could just easily push a config file that automatically takes care of all that, after reviewing what new features were added.

      Maybe you can manage features updates well in your big company and have it done in a very short time for users, but do your users love the changes? Do all users love the changes? It is a very different concept: having it easy for you to deploy, not making the users suffer the upgrade process by keeping it short and having the users actually very happy to see all the changes in the OS is a different story. If I was a user and suddenly after this nice easy upgrade all my searches went to Edge when I had configured Firefox as my default browser, I would be mad. Some Users might be happy, some not and that also depends which version of Windows you have and how clean you made them before deploying.

      It is possible only the powerusers are angered by that kind of changes and most users don’t really play with Windows that much anyway and they don’t care as long as their apps still work and not change too much (think Office ribbon), but from echoes I got from home users after some Win 10 updates, they were mad because all their “Google stuff” suddenly disappeared and had been replaced by the Bing or Edge thing, lots of new apps and games popped and they didn’t know why and thought they got some virus, etc. They saw tons of apps appear that they had no idea what they did and were wondering if they would break something if they tried to uninstall them, they were worried they were taking too much space. That was their experience on non-enterprise managed PCs. They found their PC even less intuitive to use. Maybe it is only anecdotal, maybe it is representative of the experience of a lot of folks. I would not be surprised a lot of people who didn’t know what they were getting into when they upgraded/bought a Win 10 PC will have this as their last PC and it will take a few years to see the impact of this.

      Apple is a lot better on IOS in this regard. They introduce a new feature, it has its own tab in settings, easy to disable everything if you have no use for it. If you do, they tell you what you miss, but it is not a deal breaker. Your apps knows it can be off or on. They don’t or shouldn’t expect it to be on. Often, they ask after the upgrade if you want to activate this feature. 1-2 hours after a big IOS update and you pretty much covered everything new, once a year, and updated your install procedure.

      Yes, IOS is much simpler, but still, the idea is there, it is an inspiration. There should be only one spot where all the settings can be easily covered and enabled or disabled as a group per category. Maybe there is hope. Maybe that is what they are trying to accomplish with the new settings app, slowly moving everything from the control panel there, but right now I see mostly a dumbed down version of the Control Panel.

      I don’t have a problem with the multiple ways to get to Rome approach where right-clicking everywhere in the OS can bring you to the appropriate settings section. However, I think it is mandatory that all possible settings can be easily found in one spot so if you don’t want to use all the paths to Rome, you don’t have to. Do I really have to start typing a search expression after pressing the Windows key for the cog wheel of Cortana to appear (which is not the same as the cog wheel of Windows settings when I only press the Windows key and don’t start typing) and have access to some semi-hidden settings of Cortana to forget my history of search that are not in the new settings menu? Baaad! I ask for two principles, Microsoft:

      1) Easy access to all settings in one place even if I don’t use the group policy, normal user friendly, easy opt-out of all related features and the new related ones you might invent next version. If I said no I don’t want Cortana to know me, don’t add an hypothetical “Share my most used files list with Cortana so she can help me better” or “Remember my searches and sync them across computers” setting enabled by default in a a new version of Windows. Be coherent with different types of users, earn trust.

      2) Easy saving and restoring of settings so that I can help friends easily pushing my list of settings to them, prepare different scenarios for different types of users, and have those saved settings used and converted properly by later versions of Windows as if I had done an in-place upgrade. Stop resetting privacy tweaks or changing their names when you do a feature update.

      You underestimate the importance of maybe your most important evangelists, Microsoft, the power users who help their friends. Make their job impossible and you might get everybody thinking it is too much trouble, but maybe that is what you want so you can sell the cloud OS with your “let’s leave it to us professionals, it’s too hard for you” approach. Maybe you are right and you will make tons of money, or maybe your evangelists will start selling a better free idea at some point.

      I don’t know about you, but when I configure Windows 10, I have to always reach settings by typing words I know like “Save” that will bring up a search result with a sentence like “Save and restore (Windows 7)” so that I can then click on “Create a system image” on the left after bringing up the Save and restore control panel. If I didn’t know it was there, I wouldn’t even know you can create a system image in Windows. If I type “image” in Cortana, it doesn’t find the system image function. Simple does not mean scattering and hiding features everywhere because it is too much for the user to absorb. Is it that hard to have a basic panel, then an advanced settings for each where you are not condescending and don’t explain the settings with technical terms because it could be confusing to people who won’t even look there? It is not normal to need to read technical documentation about managing computers in big businesses to understand what some settings do.

      One problem with MS is not the change in the OS most important features, but that they mess around everywhere and add new settings or bloated features that you would probably want disabled or not enabled by default for privacy, productivity or security reasons if you could find the way to do it, when it is possible.

      Another problem is they seem to think that consumers just want flashy stuff and security is optional and should be only given to big businesses. And also that small businesses are consumers that just wants to play games at work. How can they justify that only Enterprise version users gets some of what they say are the greatest security advances? So security is not important to small businesses and home users? And only Enterprise version have some privileges to remove non-business c***?

      I don’t know about others here, but there was absolutely nothing that got me excited about the different Windows 10 feature updates. I have no use for their new paradigm on the desktop. I might have had a small joy seeing they added an option to set the color of the active Window title to a different color than inactive Windows so it works more like previous versions when AU was out. When the nicest updates are features to make the OS behave more like previously, it is not that great. And I am scared at some point I will be forced to use a Metro app.

      They ported REFS newer versions too, which is nice, but that is not the kind of changes that will be disruptive to anybody. What I still don’t know is if Win 8.1 can read my newer REFS drive from AU because the original REFS versions in Windows 8 and 1507 are older.

      I loved the new WIN-X feature from Windows 10, the command prompts improvements are nice, but those are not disruptive features.

      The problem is disruptive features and bugs. It goes beyond failed upgrade processes.

      Sorry to be so harsh on you Windows, but if I do, it is because I love you so much.

      • This reply was modified 8 months ago by  AlexEiffel.
      3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #95582 Reply

        b
        AskWoody Lounger

        “Tons of apps” appeared with Windows 10 feature updates causing alarm amongst your users?

        1511 added Messaging, Phone, Skype Video and Sway.

        1607 added Connect, Feedback Hub, Paid Wi-Fi & Cellular, Skype and Sticky Notes.

        Four or five seems far less than “tons”, and many users would probably not even notice them.

        Seven apps got added to Windows 8 by Windows 8.1 but no one screamed in fear of the unknown.

    • #95535 Reply

      Noel Carboni
      AskWoody MVP

      We’re talking about feature updates every eight months, not four, and most settings do not normally get changed.

      Most of my configuration and tweaking does get overwritten. It’s not up for debate. I’ve actually gone through it with every new Windows 10 release. And please don’t try to tell an engineer with 40 years experience what should or shouldn’t be tweaked. That Microsoft thinks it knows better is at the root of all the problems.

      The simple fact is that a major release every 8 months is still way too often.

      And let’s not tacitly assume an in-place upgrade would be okay even if it didn’t undo things.

      No one in their right mind should expect an in-place-upgraded operating system to work as well as a clean-installed one – the task is simply beyond Microsoft’s or really anyone’s ability to get right. There are packages that hook deeply into the system (e.g., antivirus), programs that use undocumented interfaces, things that augment the system (e.g., shell extensions), and any number of reconfigurations necessary that Microsoft doesn’t see fit to expose in a Settings App and that DO get reset. These are not fluff. They’re what your users want from your system.

      You desperately want Windows to be simple, and it just isn’t. That ended with 16 bit Windows.

      -Noel

    • #95566 Reply

      b
      AskWoody Lounger

      Most of my configuration and tweaking does get overwritten. It’s not up for debate. I’ve actually gone through it with every new Windows 10 release. And please don’t try to tell an engineer with 40 years experience what should or shouldn’t be tweaked.

      I’m not surprised that all the stuff you’ve ripped out gets replaced with each feature update.

      You haven’t been tweaking Windows for 40 years. Even DOS isn’t that old.

      No one in their right mind should expect an in-place-upgraded operating system to work as well as a clean-installed one – the task is simply beyond Microsoft’s or really anyone’s ability to get right.

      So why do you keep doing it? You’ve apparently spent 18 months tweaking Windows 10 releases knowing that it’s going to get wasted after a couple of months (and you don’t even use it anyway). If you must tinker with it you would be better off restarting with the ISO release for a clean install each time, according to what you just said here.

      There are packages that hook deeply into the system (e.g., antivirus), programs that use undocumented interfaces, things that augment the system (e.g., shell extensions), and any number of reconfigurations necessary that Microsoft doesn’t see fit to expose in a Settings App and that DO get reset. These are not fluff. They’re what your users want from your system.

      Not my users. They’re reasonably happy with Windows 10 just as it comes. So am I.

      You desperately want Windows to be simple, and it just isn’t.

      It’s simple if you don’t tweak the c**p out of it (beyond a few group policies for business use).

    • #95576 Reply

      Noel Carboni
      AskWoody MVP

      You haven’t been tweaking Windows for 40 years. Even DOS isn’t that old.

      No but that’s not what I said. Please read more carefully.

      I HAVE BEEN working with real operating systems going back before Microsoft was conceived. I was into the internals of RSX-11 and Vax/VMS before Dave Cutler dumbed that technology down to become Windows NT. Because of Microsoft’s shortcuts it took decades for that architecture to be solid again. The Vaxes I used didn’t crash!

      And I HAVE BEEN working with Microsoft OSs since there was a Microsoft. I had a division of Engineers collaborating and doing things integrated with Windows 3.11 for Workgroups that some businesses only now are discovering.

      So why do you keep doing it? You’ve apparently spent 18 months tweaking Windows 10 releases knowing that it’s going to get wasted after a couple of months (and you don’t even use it anyway). If you must tinker with it you would be better off restarting with the ISO release for a clean install each time, according to what you just said here.

      My intent is to adopt the new OS if Microsoft ever makes it good enough. I need to know whether it’s gotten there or not for myself.

      And I hate to say it, but I’m not going to stop striving to get them to make it good enough.

      Heck, I don’t work on it full time for 4 months. My host system is powerful and stable enough that I can be dabbling with my Win 10 virtual machine setup at the same time as doing real work. A lot of that calendar time is waiting for things that used to work to come out in versions that work again, or for people to discover how to make something work again that Microsoft has broken.

      Not my users. They’re reasonably happy with Windows 10 just as it comes. So am I.

      It’s simple if you don’t tweak the c**p out of it (beyond a few group policies for business use).

      To each his own. I don’t settle for “reasonably good” when excellence is possible. Why on Earth would I degrade an already excellent working environment just because you or Microsoft think I should lower my expectations of what a new version of an Operating System should be?

      Did you ever stop to think why “Make America Great Again” has “Again” in it? It has to do with excellence.

      -Noel

      1 user thanked author for this post.

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