Confused about latest patch

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Ok, I see I got the new update:
Security Update for Internet Explorer 9 for Windows 7 x64 Edition (KB2964358)

But when I go to more information, it says I first must have security update 2929437 installed. I don’t and that security update is for IE 11. I have IE9 on my W7 machine. It says if I don’t have 2929437 installed first, then IE will crash.

I am confused

Mel

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Replies

I use IE 10 and also don’t have KB2929437 either but KB2964358 installed without incident for me.

It’s quite possible that KB….437 won’t install as being not required when IE 11 isn’t installed.

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It says if I don’t have 2929437 installed first, then IE will crash.

I am confused

Does it? (crash)

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Bruce:

I am afraid to install the update:

1) Afraid that my computer will crash and I will be unable to recover (I know this is unlikely as I should be able to delete the new update directly or indirectly via system restore)

2) My big concern is that this is the wrong update for my setup (IE9 and W7). I do prefer using IE over Chrome and Firefox (hey, that’s just me — stop sneering). I am now using Chrome. I don’t want to install the update, think IE is now patched, and use IE when this is the wrong patch.

I hope Sue Bradley will clear things up.

Mel

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Bruce:

I am afraid to install the update:

I assumed when you said, “Ok, I see I got the new update: Security Update for Internet Explorer 9 for Windows 7 x64 Edition (KB2964358)” that it was installed.

My big concern is that this is the wrong update for my setup (IE9 and W7).

I don’t really understand that when that’s exactly what it says it is.

(Although I do agree that Microsoft have totally screwed up the Known Issues info in the KB article.)

Bruce

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Bruce:

Sorry if I wasn’t clear. I received the update, but did not install it.

The related article said that if I didn’t have this other update, IE would crash. But I don’t have that other update, nor should I as it is for IE11.

It’s just confusing.

Mel

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I think MS must be assuming everyone uses IE 11 even though the likes of Vista and XP can’t go that high.

If Windows doesn’t/hasn’t offered KB2929437 then I would say you don’t need it.

—————–

Been having a bit more dig around on this and came across two articles with the second one (Applies to), that this concern only applies to those who are using IE 11 and IE 7, even though the first article’s “Applies to” suggests that it applies to IE 6 – IE 11.

The latter KB2964444 is an alternative for those using IE 11 and IE 7.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2964358

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2964444

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Been having a bit more dig around on this and came across two articles with the second one (Applies to), that this concern only applies to those who are using IE 11 and IE 7, even though the first article’s “Applies to” suggests that it applies to IE 6 – IE 11.

The latter KB2964444 is an alternative for those using IE 11 and IE 7.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2964358

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2964444

Did you mean “and Windows 7” here? I can’t see any mention of IE7 in this respect.

Bruce

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Did you mean “and Windows 7” here? I can’t see any mention of IE7 in this respect.

Bruce

At the bottom of the second article it says that it applies to Internet Explorer 11 and Windows Internet Explorer 7 – although I was wondering if that was a misprint, but I have to go by what is printed and agree, they’ve made a right mess of explaining things.

If we read that as IE 11 / Win 7 and we aren’t using IE 11, then we can ignore the dire warnings regarding the prerequisites to installing KB2964358.

Perhaps Mel can gain some comfort from this Sevenforums post to support what I’ve been saying http://www.sevenforums.com/security-news/330242-out-band-release-address-microsoft-security-advisory-2963983-a-2.html#post2765174

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At the bottom of the second article it says that it applies to Internet Explorer 11 and Windows Internet Explorer 7 – although I was wondering if that was a misprint,

Oh yeah; I’d already asked Microsoft what the heck “Windows Internet Explorer 7” meant.

Bruce

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Oh yeah; I’d already asked Microsoft what the heck “Windows Internet Explorer 7” meant.

Bruce

Yes, I’d also submitted my Feedback on that as well.

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Sudo:

Thanks very much for that link. It was enlightening and gives me comfort in the sense that I now see my confusion is indeed justified.

Here is one of the posts, stated more succinctly than my initial post:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It’s certainly confusing. I have Windows 7 with IE9 (although I use mainly Chrome) and don’t have any record in my update history or hidden updates of the pre-requisite 2929437 update, while being offered the new 2964358 update as an unchecked important update. I also don’t have any record of the alternative pre-requisite 2964444 update. That’s all in relation to the machine I’m using now, I’ll check the other one next time I have it on and get offered the new update.

I’ll do nothing for now, and watch this space…

EDIT: It looks from the MS forum as if some users are having issues with this new update, and there is also a lot of confusion over the indication that the two alternative pre-requisite updates to be installed before this latest one are stated to be for IE11. IE9 and IE10 users are therefore left wondering what to do.
My System Specs

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It’s up to you if you want to install it or not – I can only affirm that as a Win 7 / IE 10 user that I haven’t had any problems after installing the patch without the IE 11 prerequisites.

I don’t know what problems have been reported on the MS forum but those other two updates are only required for those using IE 11 and if the problems have arisen from non IE 11 users attempting to install updates that don’t apply…..

As MS have issued a patch, I’m not sure if they will release anything to compliment it in this month’s updates – unless you want to wait and see what happens with that, but notwithstanding what has been reported on the MS forum, I think your fears are ungrounded – but having said that, there is one ISP site which keeps returning Windows Internet Explorer has stopped responding – but I don’t know if that is related and have yet to restore to prior the patch to find out – too busy today – just know that the site works fine in Firefox.

I agree that MS seemed to have handled this badly as in the first article I’d linked in the “Applies to”, it does read as if either of those other two updates are required for IE 6 – IE 11, but as you have found when Googling the KBs, my Googling KB2964444 produced another article that was more positive (sort of), that the prerequisites only applied to Win 7 / IE 11 users.

Just as an update to the problem with that ISP site.

I still got the Internet Explorer has stopped working with the patch uninstalled and could only get it to work with IE 10 in Compatibility Mode, so it must have a problem somewhere as it wouldn’t even work when I changed it to IE 9 mode via F12.

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Also, why is this update sent unchecked.
In fact, why are some updates checked and others unchecked.

I can see something like IE11 unchecked (since that is a bigger decision)

Mel

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If you install the update and IE crashes, you can always remove it afterwards, either through system restore or through the control panel. To be honest, IE is not really usable with such a flaw unpatched, so in its present condition it is almost as usable if it crashed.

I’m sorry, I see no reason for such hesitation, considering the situation is as I have just described it.

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Ruirub:

Yes, I mentioned in my second post in this thread that if there is an issue I can PROBABLY resolve it via system restore or through the control panel. This, of course, presupposes that I would be able to boot in regular or safe mode. There is no real reason to think I couldn’t.

But I guess it is rather disconcerting to see such unclear information from MS. I hope they will at least clarify the situation. My guess is that if you have W7 and IE9, the other prerequisite updates are moot (they don’t apply) and hence the new update should work just fine.

Is there anyone with W7 and IE 9 who has successfully employed the update?

Right now, I am using Chrome.

As you said, for me IE is effectively disabled (although I do confess to still using it once in awhile — is there a support group for that? )

Mel

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Ruirub:

Yes, I mentioned in my second post in this thread that if there is an issue I can PROBABLY resolve it via system restore or through the control panel. This, of course, presupposes that I would be able to boot in regular or safe mode. There is no real reason to think I couldn’t.

But I guess it is rather disconcerting to see such unclear information from MS. I hope they will at least clarify the situation. My guess is that if you have W7 and IE9, the other prerequisite updates are moot (they don’t apply) and hence the new update should work just fine.

Is there anyone with W7 and IE 9 who has successfully employed the update?

Right now, I am using Chrome.

As you said, for me IE is effectively disabled (although I do confess to still using it once in awhile — is there a support group for that? )

Mel

There is no reason for you to think you wouldn’t be able to boot. If you couldn’t surely wouldn’t be due to this security patch. It seems this patch was a bit rushed out, probably because of the seriousness of the security bug, so I will attribute the conflicting information to that – not going through the regular steps to ensure everything is clear, including the info about the patch.

If your system wouldn’t boot, I guess you would have to resort to the your regular emergency routine – Windows repair disk, imaging repair disk, don’t know what exactly it is that you have in place for non booting emergencies.

I haven’t patched up, yet. Been so busy would work that haven’t bothered, but I only use IE to test dev stuff, don’t use it to browse the web. Anyway, I am on IE 10 on Windows 7 (on my main dev machine) and I guess I will patch just to see what happens.

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Hi there: I’m new to the Lounge; in fact, I just joined this morning. Depsite repeated checks with Windows Update, it doesn’t find the new patch. I have IE9 and Windows 7. Never had update problems before. I used to use “Notify Me Before” setting but yesterday set it to Automatic. Still no patch.

Has anyone else had this problem? Will the patch show up in the fullness of time?

Sincerely,

JenAnne

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Hi there: I’m new to the Lounge; in fact, I just joined this morning. Depsite repeated checks with Windows Update, it doesn’t find the new patch. I have IE9 and Windows 7. Never had update problems before. I used to use “Notify Me Before” setting but yesterday set it to Automatic. Still no patch.

Has anyone else had this problem? Will the patch show up in the fullness of time?

Sincerely,

JenAnne

You could download the appropriate one of these directly:

Windows 7 for 32-bit Systems Service Pack 1: Security Update for Internet Explorer 9 in Windows 7 (KB2964358)

Windows 7 for x64-based Systems Service Pack 1: Security Update for Internet Explorer 9 in Windows 7 x64 Edition (KB2964358)

(Check Computer, Properties, System if unsure whether you have 64-bit Windows 7.)

Bruce

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I have Window Vista home premium and IE 9, I installed the patch in question with no problems

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Well, I have just patched up and my computer booted without issues (I have IE 10 installed, so no KB2929437). The boot process was incredibly long, so be warned. After one of the longest waits I have experienced (with non stop disk activity), the usual Windows notices showed up, the updates were configured (again, a slow process) and the boot process completed. IE seems to be working without issues, as suspected.

Of course, my experience is not the full assurance of my previous belief that no harm can come from applying the patch, even if not “complying” with the requirements. I would expect the update not to even install, if that was the case, but it did and everything seems to be working normally. The only real annoyance was the very slow boot process.

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It may be that the Windows Update components just need resetting which this MS fixit will do for you http://support.microsoft.com/kb/971058

Run that and then do another manual check for updates if you aren’t auto prompted for it.

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The IE update was unchecked on my computer also. Sometime within the last 3 hours, it became checked. The update, for me, installed smoothly without a restart.

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Thanks for all the tips. Maybe I’ll just wait for a day to see if the patch reaches me in beautiful British Columbia. But I must admit, I’m getting older every minute (and at 68 that’s not a good thing). I still don’t understand why Update can’t find the patch when MS said don’t worry Automatic Update will find it, and resetting the components scares me as I’m no expert.

JenAnne Victoria BC CANADA

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Thanks for all the tips. Maybe I’ll just wait for a day to see if the patch reaches me in beautiful British Columbia. But I must admit, I’m getting older every minute (and at 68 that’s not a good thing). I still don’t understand why Update can’t find the patch when MS said don’t worry Automatic Update will find it, and resetting the components scares me as I’m no expert.

JenAnne Victoria BC CANADA

Don’t worry about running MS fixits as they are painless and Windows creates a restore point first before applying any that you opt to run.

I would have thought you would have received the update by now and as you haven’t, there could be an underlying condition that could prevent you from receiving that one and even this month’s updates and resetting the Update Components is an accepted repair step.

Windows has its own Update troubleshooter which you can access by going Start – type troubleshooting then press Enter and under System and Security click on Fix problems with Windows Update then follow the prompts.

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Ran Troubleshooter- no updates. Ran Fix-it – nothing again. Now whah should I do?

JenAnne

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Ran Troubleshooter- no updates. Ran Fix-it – nothing again. Now whah should I do?

JenAnne

Try downloading the update from the link from Bruce’s post #20.

Joe

--Joe

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Miladytn:

Glad it updated easily.
Do you have W7 and IE 9?

Mel

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Miladytn:

Glad it updated easily.
Do you have W7 and IE 9?

Mel

Sorry. I should have specified – W7 Pro with IE9. The one that installed ends with 4358.

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Oh Happy Day .. res mirabilis etc. The download worked, but I still don’t understand why it had to be done manually. Thanks to all for the help.

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Jen:

Did it work quickly and flawlessly? I have W7 and IE9 (in fact, I started this thread).

I think Ruir said it took a very long time
Mel

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OK, FYI, after reading the above comments, I decided to just try the update. After all of this discussion, I am pleased to report that it downloaded and updated very rapidly (under 60 seconds from start to finish) and it did not even require a reboot. No issues whatsoever…at least so far!

Mel

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WindowsSecret Members are not the only ones confused.

I tried all the “prerequisites” and was told: I either didn’t need them or they weren’t required. Went ahead ran KB2964358 like compiler and my IE10 is still running okay.

Here’s a link to my post (#12) in this SevenForums Thread: Out-of-Band Release to Address Microsoft Security Advisory 2963983

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It’s surprising that there is so much confusion here about a security update which is determined and installed automatically by your Windows Update, if Windows Update is turned on, and it should be turned on for individuals.
For corporations, their IT departments decide what updates to send out!

Regardless of which version of Internet Explorer you have, Windows Updates will install the correct security version for you, if your system needs it.

If your Windows Updates are not turned on for some reason that I can’t understand (aside from being a pirated copy of Windows), then go here and follow the simple steps:

http://www.microsoft.com/security/pc-security/updates.aspx

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It’s surprising that there is so much confusion here about a security update which is determined and installed automatically by your Windows Update, if Windows Update is turned on, and it should be turned on for individuals.
For corporations, their IT departments decide what updates to send out!

Regardless of which version of Internet Explorer you have, Windows Updates will install the correct security version for you, if your system needs it.

If your Windows Updates are not turned on for some reason that I can’t understand (aside from being a pirated copy of Windows)[/B], then go here and follow the simple steps:[/COLOR]

http://www.microsoft.com/security/pc-security/updates.aspx

Why do you assume that users that don’t run Windows Updates (WU) automatically are using a pirated copy? You assume too much.

Not everyone enjoys awakening or starting their machines to find that WU has hosed their machine and then has to go through the process of reverting to a time before the WU’s were installed, therefore “they – me” has WU set to “Download Updates but let me choose whether to install them” or hide them.

Microsoft is not infallible – “Once burned, twice shy”. The question here is; When is it your turn?

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It’s surprising that there is so much confusion here about a security update which is determined and installed automatically by your Windows Update, if Windows Update is turned on, and it should be turned on for individuals.
.

.

If your Windows Updates are not turned on for some reason that I can’t understand (aside from being a pirated copy of Windows)….

Regular readers of Susan Bradley’s Patch Watch column (http://windowssecrets.com/category/patch-watch/)—as well as those of us who have been bitten by problematic patches in the past—understand the value of waiting to install Windows Updates after they have been fully vetted.

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It’s surprising that there is so much confusion here about a security update which is determined and installed automatically by your Windows Update, if Windows Update is turned on, and it should be turned on for individuals.
For corporations, their IT departments decide what updates to send out!

Regardless of which version of Internet Explorer you have, Windows Updates will install the correct security version for you, if your system needs it.

If your Windows Updates are not turned on for some reason that I can’t understand (aside from being a pirated copy of Windows), then go here and follow the simple steps:

http://www.microsoft.com/security/pc-security/updates.aspx

I see you are relatively new to The Lounge. So you can be forgiven for not realizing that Windows secrets serves a variety of users. Everyone from Home Users who treat their computers as applaiances (just want it to work without thinking about it) to Power Users and IT Pros and technicians, who may have highly modified system configurations and may therefore be much more likely to experience patching issues. Susan Bradley aims her column at small business users primarily, and they have to make sure each patch will not disrupt mission-critical systems before applying any patches.

Add to this mix Woody Leonard, whose (separate) blog gives users recommendations about when there are patching issues, and we have a wide variety indeed of readers and Lounge participants, each group with our own needs and concerns.

To assume someone not allowing Automatic Updates is hiding criminal activities is simply absurd. Woody’s blog is full of reasons NOT to trust MS Automatic Updates, especially for Windows 8/8.1. To accuse me and thousands of followers of AskWoody of piracy is beyond insulting — it borders on a violation of the civility we in The Lounge expect from our fellow members.

As this current discussion about just one of the current MS Updates and its KB Article shows, nothing is ever certain with Microsoft Updates. It pays to question and wait for others to report before letting MS Updates install just anything they may throw at us.

BTW, if the patch isn’t checked by default, it won’t be installed by Automatic Updates. Woody Leonard’s advice is NEVER to check what is not checked by default. These patches are often unchecked for certain systems for good reasons.

-- rc primak

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Well, I’m glad I wasn’t the only one who was easily confused (see Monty Python). I downloaded and installed from the link in #20. Very quick but had to restart. I’m amazed at the lack of information from MS for non-experts like me. I wonder if the MS Home Security Newsletter that comes out on patch Tuesday will have some better information (ie why Update couldn’t find it).

So thanks all and I’m glad I found the Lounge.

Jen Victoria BC Canada
PS:Next task for me: find out why my HP Hardware Diagnostics Tool freezes; any tips – sorry wrong topic!

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Well, I’m glad I wasn’t the only one who was easily confused (see Monty Python). I downloaded and installed from the link in #20. Very quick but had to restart. I’m amazed at the lack of information from MS for non-experts like me. I wonder if the MS Home Security Newsletter that comes out on patch Tuesday will have some better information (ie why Update couldn’t find it).

So thanks all and I’m glad I found the Lounge.

Jen Victoria BC Canada
PS:Next task for me: find out why my HP Hardware Diagnostics Tool freezes; any tips – sorry wrong topic!

You may need an updated version http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?cc=uk&lc=en&docname=c01443317

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I’m running Win7 with IE11.
The update showed up out of cycle and checked. I waited to see what WinSecrets would have to say. Then it showed up unchecked. And then checked again.

Just installing it now. It required a reboot.

Just for clarity with readers here: Windows Secrets contributors like Fred Langa recommend you:
– set Windows Update to notify but don’t install. WinSecrets typically comes out a couple of days later and will warn you of any issues with specific updates. This greatly reduces hassles with the occasional problem patch. I’ve had to help friends out of such issues but not myself.

– Update IE when it’s OKed – even if you don’t use it (it’s a good idea to use an alternative browser as it has security issues like ActiveX). Why update IE? Because IE is closely tied to the OS and unpatched IE can be a back door to trouble. Scripts on an infected web page or email can easily trigger it via ActiveX, etc. And even the good sites can get infected.

I’m surprised so many WinSecrets readers would not have updated IE. Bad idea.

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I’m running Win7 with IE11.
The update showed up out of cycle and checked. I waited to see what WinSecrets would have to say. Then it showed up unchecked. And then checked again.

Just installing it now. It required a reboot.

Just for clarity with readers here: Windows Secrets contributors like Fred Langa recommend you:
– set Windows Update to notify but don’t install. WinSecrets typically comes out a couple of days later and will warn you of any issues with specific updates. This greatly reduces hassles with the occasional problem patch. I’ve had to help friends out of such issues but not myself.

– Update IE when it’s OKed – even if you don’t use it (it’s a good idea to use an alternative browser as it has security issues like ActiveX). Why update IE? Because IE is closely tied to the OS and unpatched IE can be a back door to trouble. Scripts on an infected web page or email can easily trigger it via ActiveX, etc. And even the good sites can get infected.

I’m surprised so many WinSecrets readers would not have updated IE. Bad idea.

I waited a couple of days until our IT guys announced they were pushing an update. They did not give the KB #, which would mean nothing to almost anyone except the IT guys and me. (When I asked because it didn’t push to my machine, the Help Desk guy could not tell me, so maybe it only means something to me. I pulled it anyway.) I was expecting an out-of-cycle Patch watch but Susan did not issue one and I had to do some digging in Technet before I could even infer that the KB was for the ZDE.

Anyway, I don’t have the prerequisites nor have they been offered AFAIK. I had a recent System Restore so rolled the dice and installed the update, which ran fine and required a restart in two very different environments – Win7 x64 with IE 11 and Win XP Pro with IE 9. I use Firefox at home (the Win 7 box) and have noticed no difference since the update. I switched to Chrome on the XP box at work, which is quicker than IE ever was.

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BTW, if the patch isn’t checked by default, it won’t be installed by Automatic Updates. Woody Leonard’s advice is NEVER to check what is not checked by default. These patches are often unchecked for certain systems for good reasons.

Unchecked listed Windows updates are unchecked because they are not critical, not because they are not appropriate for the system running the update. They are purely optional and can improve system operation. I almost always install these optional updates and have never run into a problem. I also don’t recall Woody ever giving the advice you quoted to never check an unchecked Windows Update. Can you give me a citation?

Jerry

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” I also don’t recall Woody ever giving the advice you quoted to never check and unchecked Windows Update. Can you give me a citation?

Jerry”

Woody has mentioned it quite a few times as I recall, but here’s one of them. See the last paragraph in his lead-in.

https://www.askwoody.com/2014/msdefcon-5-patched-11/

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Unchecked listed Windows updates are unchecked because they are not critical, not because they are not appropriate for the system running the update. They are purely optional and can improve system operation. I almost always install these optional updates and have never run into a problem. I also don’t recall Woody ever giving the advice you quoted to never check an unchecked Windows Update. Can you give me a citation?

Jerry

Woody’s most recent repetition of the advice not to check updates which are unchecked:
https://www.askwoody.com/2014/msdefcon-3-time-apply-aprils-black-tuesday-patches-caveats/#comments

woody May 7th, 2014 at 06:44

@Jacquie –

Optional updates are rarely worth installing.

woody May 14th, 2014 at 07:46

@Cayak –

The first patch is for all versions of IE. Go ahead and install it, IF IT’S CHECKED.

Don’t go checking anything that isn’t checked. Ain’t smart to fool Mother Nature.

You get the drift, yes?

-- rc primak

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I stand corrected. I don’t subscribe to that newsletter so I wasn’t aware. I still disagree with the premise however.

Jerry

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My apology to anyone I may have offended, which was never my intention. I’ll now go and sit grounded in the class-room for 3 days!

Yes, I agree that advanced users / businesses may turn off WU, or set it to just “download and let me decide”.

I think I have failed to explain that the recommended settings should be to download the updates and let the user decide, which is what I have always done.

In my case, and for this particular patch, Windows downloaded it automatically, and I gave it the OK to patch after I looked at the KB and understood what it is for.

Thanks to all who have replied, and I’ll check out the blog sometime.

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The real fault lies TOTALLY with MS for not making things clear. I started this thread. When I finally got the “courage” to do the update, it was a 60 second non-event. MS just did not make things clear — in fact, their message was contradictory as they said IE would crash if a certain update was not done first, but the update was for IE11. So, those of us with an earlier version of IE were left hanging. I really do expect better from MS

Also, my set-up merely informs me that updates are ready for my computer. I’ve read enough horror stories about updates, so I usually wait for Susan’s okay before doing the d/-installation.

Mel
Mel

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We all deserve better from Microsoft (MS), for reasons unknown to us they just dropped the ball (big time) on this one. Don’t worry, if you search the web MS knows it too.

Here is something anyone can sign-up for, if you have a Windows Live ID: Microsoft Security Bulletin Advance Notification The sign-up link is first up on the right under Related Links just follow the prompts.

If you would rather not register you can go here: Microsoft Security Bulletin; Microsoft Security Bulletin Summary

[*]Scroll down a bit until you see Upcoming Release.

[*]Click on Microsoft Security Bulletin Advance Notification for (current Month – current Year) in this case May 2014.

[*]When that opens you will see what MS is planning for the May 2014 Updates on the 13th.

[*]Don’t forget to check out the Other Information link in the On this Page box.

You can reach this page quicker if you click on either of the two links below the sign-up link I pointed out in my paragraph above or the embolden Read the most recent advance notification or the most recent security bulletin summary near the bottom of that page.

For sh10453; That’s okay no harm, no foul. I believe you learned something here and you can come out now instead of waiting until Tuesday.

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Well I disagree with Woody on these. There are a few optional updates I ignore like the Bing desktop and language options but I’ve been installing the others on my PCs and the client machines I’ve worked on with no reported problems. Since they are truly optional, your PC will work without them but they can be useful – Certificate updates and compatibility fixes come to mind. I just believe in keeping Windows as patched as possible. But YMMV.

Jerry

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Well I disagree with Woody on these. There are a few optional updates I ignore like the Bing desktop and language options but I’ve been installing the others on my PCs and the client machines I’ve worked on with no reported problems. Since they are truly optional, your PC will work without them but they can be useful – Certificate updates and compatibility fixes come to mind. I just believe in keeping Windows as patched as possible. But YMMV.

Jerry

I also usually just apply everything which is not obviously a MS Sales Pitch or a prep for an upgrade I don’t intend to do. Or a driver-related item. Otherwise, most of the Optional Updates and unchecked items pass muster with Susan Bradley — eventually. That’s good enough for me.

-- rc primak

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