For those of you who need (or want) to rebuild a Win7 system, but don’t want to get stuck with all of the “telemetry,” Canadian Tech has a detailed ch
[See the full post at: Canadian Tech: How to rebuild a Win7 system with minimal snooping]
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Patch reliability is unclear, but widespread attacks make patching prudent. Go ahead and patch, but watch out for potential problems. |
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Canadian Tech: How to rebuild a Win7 system with minimal snooping
- This topic has 100 replies, 25 voices, and was last updated 2 years, 4 months ago.
AuthorViewing 30 reply threadsAuthor-
I have a couple of old W7 systems just gathering dust so this could be helpful if I decided to bring them back to life for any reason.
Thanks Woody & CT
Don't take yourself so seriously, no one else does
All W10 Pro at 22H2,(2 Desktops, 1 Laptop). -
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1. In my experience, all Dell systems automatically activate on installation. They do not require you to enter an activation code. The only provision is that the install must be of the same edition (home, pro, etc) and bitness (32 or 64) as the original product key.
2. When you install an image of a completed system, activation has already taken place and will not be called for for any brand system. That goes for Office as well. I suspect MS activation could well cease after 1-14-20
CT
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Ah, the old question about which DVD R/RW format is the “best” one to use.
Here are two articles that may help to explain the differences (and history) between the DVD-R/RW and DVD+R/RW formats (incidentally, that’s a dash, not a minus sign, in “DVD-R/RW”):
http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/media/dvd-formats.htm and,
https://www.diffen.com/difference/DVD%2BR_vs_DVD-R (note links at the bottom).
Cheers,
AJN
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One good day Win 7 laptop stop burning DVDs: it would get right to the end of the burn, then change its mind and terminate with an error message saying that it had failed to complete the recording (which I thought was a little unnecessary). I decided the built-in DVD drive was coming to a rather earlier end of its existence, muttered something no fit for repeating here about OEMs fondness for building their machines using showy, but cheap, flimsy stuff, and started looking online for a replacement. Then I mentioned my problem here and someone (maybe you, AJNorth?) told me to check if the DVD disks I was using were + or – and to use only +. So I checked and, sure enough, found that the pack of DVDs, recently bought at the local Staples, was all – . So I went back and got a pack of + from there. Tried one of the new blank + DVDs to see if I could burn something on it and… problem solved! The optical drive was as OK as could be expected given its several years of service. The problem was caused by using DVD disks with the wrong sign!
Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).
MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV1 user thanked author for this post.
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Anonymous, DVD MINUS R is a completely different kind of disk. It is pretty much designed for Video recordings, not data. DVD PLUS R is designed for much greater precision.
If you use -r’s you will encounter many errors. You will not with +r’s.
The System Image creation in Win7 writes the DVD, then reads it back to verify. -r’s will frequently fail that verification step.
You are building something you really want to work when and if you need it. Do not take chances with technology that is not as reliable.
When you shop you will find the vast majority that are offered are -r. Here is an example
https://www.amazon.ca/Verbatim-4-7-upto-Recordable-Disc/dp/B0003QIXBY/ref=sr_1_4?crid=6G9T24ZI1SQL&keywords=dvd+%2Br&qid=1574018303&sprefix=dvd+%2Br%2Caps%2C156&sr=8-4CT
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I know of no reason why you could not make the image on an external hard drive. It is just that the image can be quite large and that takes a lot of space out of use for what could be a long time. This is an insurance kind of thing that you hope you will never need.
CT
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Seems like DVDs have gotten more expensive!
BTW those are +s not -s
Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.
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Spectre and Meltdown have no active in the wild exploits, last time Woody revisited the topic here.
Then there is the matter of the BIOS update required for complete protection. Several of the machines that I tend to were never issued that update by their OEMs (mostly HPs, plus a few Dells), even though Intel indicated that they were available for their respective processors (and, of course, the performance hit — which can be significant).
1 user thanked author for this post.
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Thanks, Canadian Tech, for taken the time and trouble to explain in careful detail one way to keep running Windows 7 safely after EOL in January. I am sure that many here can benefit from it.
For my part, running, not hundreds of computers as a professional computer OS administrator or repairer, but only my one good old laptop for my own personal business, I do have, based on my own and very personal experience, since the days of Win 98, a somewhat different take on what is coming and how to be ready for it. At least for someone in my situation, without the responsibility for any other machines other than my own.
In particular, I have been updating in my 8.5 year-old laptop, since I first got it in 2011, both Windows 7 and Office 2010 all the way through this October and plan to continue doing so until January. Being “Group B” since before there was a Group B, or even a Woody’s, in either its present or its past “Windows Secrets” incarnation, I have, even so, never, ever had a problem caused by a bad patch. My problems have been caused by bugs in applications installed after Windows or by “services” and software, those launching at start-up in particular, planted in my HD when installing some gadgets and said applications.
How Come? Well: all that has taken me to achieve this healthy patching record is to look around for information on possible problems with some updates, figure out which are nonsense and which needs to be taken under advisement, then act accordingly. To this end, places such as Woody’s have been, over the years, of invaluable help. And, of course, having a measure of good luck, as is always needed for anything in life that to turn out OK in the end. Further, I am not too concerned with “telemetry” planted in these updates by MS. It is definitely a worry, but way, way, way down in my list of what-to-worry-about priorities.
But, other than the above disagreement with following some parts of Canadian Tech’s recipe, I heartily agree with doing so with others, such as the idea of setting Windows Update to never to update, unless one learns that there is something available for Win 7 after its end of life that might be worth installing, strictly for security reasons. Other than that, it is Group W for ever — or unless until some extended support service is offered and proven in practice to be a good thing to use.
I also plan to keep the AV up to date for as long as it is supported, as well as other applications needed to protect the PC from malignant intrusions. And use preferentially, as the OS for Internet access, Linux Mint, that now I have installed on the PC in dual-boot with Win 7.
Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).
MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV1 user thanked author for this post.
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And then buy extended security updates. If you spend this long rebuilding, don’t use it for surfing.
Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher
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In this case, @Canadian-Tech recommends not patching any update after May 2017. KB3020369 qualifies for this timeframe. If you are not currently installing any updates, the SHA-2 coding support and the later Servicing Stack KB4474419 and KB4490628 are irrelevant.
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but KB3020369 is an obsolete update and KB3177467 should be used instead. avoid using KB3020369 since windows update does not offer that one anymore
KB3177467 was originally released in late September 2016 but got a V2 release on October 2018 as a “security update”. download & install KB3177467 from MS Update Catalog:
https://www.catalog.update.microsoft.com/Search.aspx?q=3177467
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Thank you Canadian Tech and Woody, I have bookmarked the full post webpage that Woody references:
[See the full post at: Canadian Tech: How to rebuild a Win7 system with minimal snooping]
I use the Firefox extension – Print Friendly & PDF to make a PDF version for my reference and will attach here for others that like PDF. Good work Canadian Tech.
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lars, would you please make a new pdf of that? two of the links were defective and have since been fixed by PKcano.
CT
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We are aware of some issues with the links as they are currently formatted.
We are working on fixing this – please bear with us!
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This seems like a lot of trouble to go through to avoid having a modern operating system.
The other thing I can’t get out of my mind is how many businesses and individuals stuck with Windows XP — until the day a massive new attack for which XP’s security had no defense came along. Microsoft was obliged to issue an emergency patch, but that did not make XP systems perfectly safe again.
I fear that this idea of “freezing” the “perfect” Windows installation and never updating it may lead Windows 7 die-hards down the same Primrose Path.
For all this effort, I could teach a complete newby how to get by in Linux Mint. Even if you think you have “indispensable programs” which are “Windows only”. With very few exceptions for highly technical business programs, there are decent Linux equivalents. You just have to know where and how to look for them. Worst case, you run WINE or a Virtual Machine inside Mint or Ubuntu. The host OS (Linux) is providing all the security in these scenarios, so not being up to date in the VM is nearly irrelevant, as long as your drivers and activation are working.
If Windows 7 activation ever ceases, that could be a whole different kettle of fish. But Windows XP can’t be activated now, and there are some who still run Windows XP in VMs. I don’t know how they do it. Or why, unless some specific software was never updated by the vendor. And has no Linux equivalent. That would be a rare case indeed.
-- rc primak
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There are plenty of production W7 systems that can’t (yet) be replaced so having detailed re-build instructions is a great help.
Home use is a very different arrangement and up to the individual.cheers, Paul
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rc primak: I do agree with you, and would add that, if there is enough space on disk, one could install Linux in dual-boot with Win 7 and use the Linux side of the PC for surfing the Web and doing email and other Internet-related activities. Files downloaded in this way can then be passed to the Windows side, after scanning them for viruses. And any rare security update coming from MS can still be installed in Windows. A perfectly safe arrangement? No. But what is ever perfect in this sublunary world? But this way forward is right for me, maybe for you, but not for everybody.
I do understand that Canadian Tech is addressing users with similar concerns motivated by being in a similar situation as CT: they all have to take care of many computers their owners want to keep on using with Win 7, the operating system they are familiar with; and, or like; and, or need because of some very useful software they have set up just right and would be a tremendous hassle and waste of time to look for a suitable replacement and then set it up to be, once more, just right for its intended purpose. And, or — for whatever reason, including the good one mentioned by Paul T just before this posting– they are required by their bosses to keep using Win 7. And, or are just plain ornery people that don’t like to change anything, ever, so there is no point trying to convince them to change their minds.
Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).
MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV2 users thanked author for this post.
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If your boss requires that you stick with Windows 7, your boss should be looking after your updates and security. And your boss should be fixing any problem which result from sticking with an unsupported OS version. That should be a contract requirement. Betcha very few bosses do that.
-- rc primak
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RC, lets not get out of perspective. This is a solution for Aunt Martha. The aunt who uses her Windows 7 system for email, a bit of browsing and possibly Facebook. She uses it for maybe half an hour ever few days. For her, a very simple system fits her needs just fine.
This is not a solution for every Techie or user who is technically competent.
Keep in mind that “Aunt Martha” is a description for the vast majority of computer “users.” The people like you and I who lurk in this corner are techies who have different much more sophisticated needs.
CT
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I suspect MS activation could well cease after 1-14-20
I wonder if this event would munge CT’s whole scheme? I would hate for folks to go to all this trouble, only to find that activation is revoked and cannot be re-established.
Anything is possible, but I’d be very surprised if the ability to activate Windows 7 licenses were to stop anytime soon after January 2020. It may be reassuring to know that Vista could still be activated as of this past summer (I did it).
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Cybertooth, thanks. I think you are probably right. In fact, I’d put 10 to 1 odds on it. I am just not willing to take the risk. Microsoft never considered Vista a risk. It considers Windows 7 a huge risk because the market still has something like 35% Win7 after 4 years of not being able to buy a Win7 system. So, I am not certain that past behaviour is a good indicator. Particularly in this case.
CT
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I don’t think they can afford to stop activation, not at least for a minimum of three more years until 2023. There are going to be a lot of people buy into the extended support that may, at some point, have to reinstall and reactivate.
2 users thanked author for this post.
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Canadian Tech: Thanks for this. A couple of points:
- You state that you do not update after the May 2017 security only (SO) and IE updates because the June 2017 SO update had a bug only fixed in a later rollup update. I don’t remember reading about this at the time, but after a little searching I found https://appuals.com/fix-something-went-wrong-and-your-search-couldnt-be-completed/ which describes a problem with searching in Outlook caused by the June 2017 SO update KB4022722 and which can be addressed by the “hot-fix” “standalone package” at a link which connects to the June “Preview” Quality Rollup KB4022168. Is this what you are referring to and the specific reason you abandoned further updating? (I see your point in principle, that bugs in SO updates should be fixed in SO updates, but as I don’t use Outlook I would probably not encounter this specific problem in practice.)
- Thanks for the advice about DVD+R disks. A few years ago I was using the Windows “create a system partition image” mechanism to backup to DVDs, but when I needed to restore from one of these backups it failed. Out of about 10 such backups about half failed. At the time I assumed that this was a problem with the Windows create/backup and restore software, but based on your comments it may have been because the images were burnt to DVD-R disks (I no longer have the disks so cannot check.)
- Following my point 2. above, it might be a good idea to add a few words to your instructions to remind people to create their restoration media e.g. W7 rescue disk if using the Windows create/backup mechanism or a 3rd party restore thing if using a 3rd party tool such as Macrium Reflect AND if this is on a DVD it also should be DVD+R (not -R).
Thanks. Garbo.
PS: I have created what are effectively “factory recovery” images similar to yours since I replaced Windows XP with W7, when the actual “factory recovery” mechanism from the PC manufacturer restoring XP became obsolete. For a long time I used bootable Partition Manager disks (DVD-R – my bad!) to copy the system partition mid-installation to a new partition in the slowest, inner part of the hard disk drive and later copy it back to the faster, outer system partition to restore.
More recently I have also created Macrium Reflect images of these mid-installation system partitions, so I have 2 mechanisms and hence some redundancy.
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It would help to provide some background:
I provide support for about 120 Win7 client systems. These are people much like the Aunt Martha described earlier. They do NOT include enterprise or business situations, gamers or intense technical people. My objective is to bring stability, ease of use and payoff from an investment (the PC). In reality, when you leave out enterprise installations, my clients are actually quite typical of the vast majority of computer users.As an underlying strategy, I avoid as much technology as possible. i want my clients to be able to support themselves as much as possible, should I not be available.
Hence, although I have no doubt that software like Macrium is likely superior, it is just one more step to the technical side as opposed to using what is already built-in to Windows 7 itself. I have used the “System Image” function in Win7 hundreds of times with near perfect success. I simply produce a pack of 2 to 6 DVD’s which I tell them is insurance. Keep them safe and know where they are.
My conclusions in mid-2017 were that Microsoft had made such a muck up of Windows Update that it was well beyond Aunt Martha’s capability to manage the Update process, and that perhaps we should take the risk of not updating, since it was pretty clear that to continue to pursue the Windows Update paranoia would result in systems that could no longer be used.
I visit the Ask Woody site daily. When I read the many stories of the mess they call Windows Update, I oddly smile and have a feeling of “that is someone else’s problem”. I have divorced myself and my clients from this mess and they are not only not worse for the decision, but in fact, far better off. There are some serious respectable experts who roam the halls of Woody and offer streams of advice on how to minimize the damage that WU does.
The results in the ensuing 30 months have been quite stunning. My phone rarely rings any more. My work-load to support these people has fallen off by at least 75% and more like 90%.
There has not been a single instance of any kind of problem.
In fact, these systems are as stable as residential heating systems. Rarely needing concern and only maybe annual checkups for potential hardware failures. These systems rarely change. The only changes (updates) that take place are from Chrome and BitDefender, and those are under the covers and not obvious to my clients.
This story would not be complete without talking about the mess that they call Windows 10. For many reasons I will not go into here, I have not purchased a Win10 system, nor do I ever intend to do so. In years past, that would have been an impossible scenario. However, in today’s world, the vast majority of most people’s computer needs are served well from a tiny device they carry in a shirt or hip pocket. The one that is operated by Google’s Android system. The computer in every home idea has transformed into a computer in every shirt pocket
My clientelle has fallen off from 4 years ago when it was 150 systems. Of those 30 systems, maybe 5 or 6 bought Windows 10 systems. A few bought Apple systems. The others simply no longer have a computer. Other than those 5 or 6 systems, my clients who used to buy new ones at about 30 per year have not bought a computer is the last 3 years. The computer store which regarded me as a regular customer rarely sees me any longer. I no longer have a sales rep contact at Dell.
CT
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Great guide, thanks!
Fractal Design Pop Air * Thermaltake Toughpower GF3 750W * ASUS TUF GAMING B560M-PLUS * Intel Core i9-11900K * 4 x 8 GB G.Skill Aegis DDR4 3600 MHz CL16 * ASRock RX 6800 XT Phantom Gaming 16GB OC * XPG GAMMIX S70 BLADE 1TB * SanDisk Ultra 3D 1TB * Samsung EVO 840 250GB * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Windows 10 Pro 22H2 64-bit Insider * Windows 11 Pro Beta Insider1 user thanked author for this post.
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MS made changes from a SHA-1 to a SHA-2 signing requirement (mandatory).
Here are two threads that may help you with a Win7 reinstallation. There are certain requirements that have installed first. And the progression of updating was designed to circumvent the problems caused by the Meltdown/Spectre mitigations and the following problems caused by Microsoft.
The threads are not up to date, but if you follow the method for later updates, it will take you to the Jan 2020 Win7 EOL. After that, you will need to either purchase an ESU license from MS or use the bypass method to install updates.https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/asking-for-a-favor-about-updating-my-win-7/#post-1907521
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There are a few places online that have SP 1
Service Pack 1 can no longer be obtained at Windows Update.
https://www.catalog.update.microsoft.com/Search.aspx?q=KB976932
The Windows Update Client does no longer offer to update itself, even with SP1.
Windows Update Client for Windows 7 and Windows Server 2008 R2: March 2016
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Alex my clientelle are all casual non-expert users. That’s 4 years with 100+ PCs without a patch and without a single problem. The critical provisions are: BitDefender AV+, Chrome, NO Adobe stuff.
CT
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@Hmm888 – I wonder if either of the following might be related to your activation issues.
https://www.askwoody.com/2017/report-of-kb-4038777-breaking-activation-on-dell-machines/
Don’t know whether you’ve got a Dell or not, but the second link is not specific to Dell.
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Hello All,
I have read the post regarding rebuilding Win7, which essentially says that *all* that is needed after a reinstall of Win7 SP1 is to apply one or both of KB3138612 and KB3020369,
and afterwards only the listed security patches (until may 2017).But that post was created *BEFORE* Jan 2020.
So, my question is:
If today, in March 2022 I perform a new installation of Win 7 SP1,
and I do *NOT* want to limit in any way the updates that became available after SP1
(up to Jan 2020), will those updates be offered *AGAIN TODAY* when running
Windows Update, even if , normally, there are no more updates released/offered
since Jan 2020 ?The two KB updates indicated above are rather old, dated in 2016.
Or, let me ask the same question differently:
If today, in March 2022, I perform a NEW installation of Win7 + SP1 ,
is it sufficient to (manually) install ONLY THE LAST monthly rollup update from Jan 2020,
which is KB4534310 (and its prerequisite KB-s), or there is a need to install ALL the intermediary updates, since SP1 up to Jan 2020 ?I ask this question because, though I do have an image backup of my Win 7 machine,
it might happen that it will have to be reinstalled due to some hardware problems,
possibly on a different hardware.It would be extremely useful to have a *FINAL* updated list of ALL the steps that should be performed for a NEW installation of Win7 performed *AFTER* Jan 2020,
so that to include ALL the updates ?
As fard as I have seen, other posters have asked for the same.Thanks a lot in advance & Best Regards,
Iudith
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There are two Topics I would suggest you read. They are old and were written before Win7 EOL.
You will not be able to use Windows Update with just the two updates you mention (KB3138612 and KB3020369). Even some of the prerequisites mentioned in the threads have been superseded. But it will give you information about how to go about updating a clean install of Win7 SP1.
They are long, and there are multiple linked items. But the knowledge will help.https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/asking-for-a-favor-about-updating-my-win-7/#post-1907521
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With respect, an updated [final] unified post-EOL procedure for the clean reinstallation of Win 7 would doubtless be extremely useful to (and very much appreciated by) a great many users.
In addition, should it be necessary, a fork in the procedure to allow for successfully incorporating the Microsoft Extended Support Updates (ESU), or those from 0Patch, could also be added.
Cheers,
AJN
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or those from 0Patch, could also be added.
I was also going to add that 0Patch is a good alternative. I’ve been using 0Patch on my Win 7 laptop – just started my third year with them – and all seems to work just fine. Patches are unobtrusive and they keep up to date with threats. I recommend them and it is very affordable. I hope they continue supporting Win 7 after this next year!
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Yes, I have been quite pleased with them, as well (I have 0Patch installed on eleven Windows 7 machines that are under my wing), and share your hope that they are able to continue crafting the patches necessary to keep Win 7 safely usable. (There is also an ongoing discussion within the company about the possibility of offering patches for Windows 10 after it goes EOL.)
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Exactly, that is what probably many, many users would highly appreciate to have, now for Win7, later on for Win10, a.s.o.
All this mess could have been avoided if Microsoft had not denied us the possibility to restore a system image backup on a different machine …
… not to add that, in fact, sometimes you encounter issues that no one can definitely say whether there are OS bugs or hardware problems …
This makes us consume a lot of time researching what to do …
From the very first days of Microsoft & Windows, a “common” solution for many problems was to restart the machine … or reinstall the OS … when, in fact, some more convenient possibilities should have been expected …Thank you all
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What do you mean by “a different shell of a computer” ?
I am not an installations specialist … but, logically, I have never understood why exactly you can’t just take your OS hard drive and plug it into a different machine,
of course, supposing that the problem is not related to the hard drive itself ?
This way Microsoft can also be sure that your OS is not “multiplied” without an additional licence.
I perfectly agree with you that 3rd party software is superior to Windows backup.
I once tried to do a simple restore to a standard Windows restore point,
and it failed … so it looks indeed unreliable even for restoring the Registry only
A few months ago I was happy to find a nice 3rd party backup software, which is simple to use and I was able to both take a windows image backup and create a restore/rescue disk that works … after once in the past, trying the same with a more professional backup software, it did not work … maybe due to some Windows bug …
The best thing, if somebody would take upon himself the challenge, would be to create a “service-pack”-like installation file, containing ALL the updates required for going from Win7 SP1 up to the EOL version, starting from a clean installation of Win7 + SP1, regardless of any hardware specifics. -
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I think that “Canadian Tech (CT)” is mixing his ‘-‘ and ‘+’ here in this comment #2435925 : “Plus R is just not reliable Minus R is and I have done this hndreds of tiems”.
See the sub-thread at https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/canadian-tech-how-to-rebuild-a-win7-system-with-minimal-snooping/#post-2006766 above, where another Anonymous (not me) quotes the following from CT’s original article: “I emphasize the need for PLUS R DVD blanks. Do not use the more common MINUS R DVD blanks.”
To avoid further confusion, maybe CT can clarify?
HTH.
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Just re-read this and realized I made a critical error. Sorry!!
DVD -R is a different technology designed for video where minor bit errors do not matter. DVD+R is a much more precise and reliable recording system.
Do NOT use -R DVD’s for backups of any kind. System Images made on -R will be unreliable.
CT
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I’ll put it on the todo list but I’ll be honest it won’t be until later on after my busy season is over.
Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher
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Remembering Woody
