Bulleted/numbered lists

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In 2003 pressing Tab when in a list would display the next level number or bullet. Shift Tab would move back a level. Looked at Compatability list in 2007 and can’t get this feature to work nohow
Any help please. Looked at the very helpful links posted on the changeover, but no advice available.

Mike Mullett
Reading UK

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Mike,

You can still do something like this in Word 2007, but not (as far as I know) with the convenience of ‘Tab/Shift Tab’: If you set the bullet or numbered list as a multilevel list, and associate a defined paragraph style with each level of the list (and make sure each respective style in the list is assigned as Level 1, Level 2, Level 3 etc. in its style properties), you can then promote/demote items in the list with either the Promote/Demote or Promote List/Demote List commands – any of which can be retrieved from ‘All Commands’ and put on the QAT.

[Addendum: If you set the list up as described above, you can then also use the Decrease Indent and Increase Indent buttons that are on the Ribbon by default, to do the promote/demote.]

Gary

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Thanks Gary – will experiment. By the way, what’s a QAT?

Mike

Edit: Solved it – Quick Action Toolbar

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If your tab and shift tab aren’t working, go to Word Options>Proofing>AutoCorrect Options>Format as you Type and select (at the bottom) Set left- and first-indent with tabs and backspaces.

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Leanne

A lot of people have similar problems. Somewhere along the line they do something, get an unexpected autocorrect, and in the context dialog tell Word to stop doing that. Later they regret it, or I try to explain how to do something and their mileage varies.

Do you know if there a quick and easy way to put ALL those settings back to default? (some people don’t know what the default was!). I used to just delete normal.dot, or even the Word registry key as well, but those things are a little drastic!

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You can also use alt+shift+right(or left) arrow to promote/demote the indentation.

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Iansavell

I don’t know if this is a quick and easy way to save everything back. I work in numbered levels often and if I press tab and the number/level doesn’t advance (and just puts in a tab), I know it some how quit working. Because of that, I added “AutoFormat as You Type” (from All Commands) to my QAT. It’s one click to access to change rather than going through Word Options>Proofing, etc.

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Formatting long Word documents with multi-level numbered Headings under the Styles options has always been buggy and appears to have taken on a much more mysterious character within Word2007/2010.

1.0
1.1
1.2
1.2.1
1.2.2
1.3
1.3.1
1.3.1.1
1.3.1.2
1.3.2
2.0
…

The only way I can achieve such a nested numbering system is to open a customized older Word2003 template (*.dot) and then use the Format Painter between the two documents. I have tried merging Styles/Formats, I have tried opening the older *.dot template to use as baseline but no matter what happens, Word just does not like me or this sequential numbering style that has served me for so many years. Using this old feature to create automatically update-able TableOfContents (with hyperlinks that are click-able to directly navigate to the sections of the document) used to be a simple pleasure in large documents.
Bum!

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I did look into multi-level numbering a few years ago. The problem lies in the “list gallery” within Word. This was introduced somewhere around Office 95 and is fundamentally broken. In a proper word processor (like Word 6, or WordPerfect) you would define heading numbering within the paragraph style and things would just work. With the List Gallery numbering is defined in the list style and linked to the paragraph style.

Problems begin with the apparently innocent toolbar buttons for add/remove numbers, add/remove bullets, indent and outdent. These don’t do what they seem to, in stead they run macros linked into the List Gallery. All is well if the List Gallery is in its default state, but if not things rapidly get out of control.

I create templates for businesses who require an absolutely reproducible format for their client-facing documents. The way I achieve this is a multi-pronged attack. First I create a list gallery entry with the desired multi-level numbering (my clients typically want numbered text paragraphs as well as headings). That list links to appropriate paragraph styles which are created for the purpose, not adapted from the defaults (else cut-and-paste gives weird results). I then overwrite the default list-affecting toolbar button actions with my own macros that switch paragraph styles around rather than changing the list. Finally I disable the list gallery to make sure my carefully constructed list can’t be changed by the user, and I disable “create lists as I type”.

The last stage is to force the style gallery styles to be just the ones I want the user to use not the ones Microsoft decree.

All that was a lot of exacting work, but it paid dividends for the clients who adopted it because finally their staff spent their time writing reports not trying to format the numbering! In Word 6 numbering just worked…

I am about to try this with Word 2010 – I hope under the ribbon UI I can still do it!

If you do this, remember that you have to make a template (dot) not a document, put it in a secure shared location with read-only permissions for users, and set the Word “workgroup templates” locatiion to that folder. In 2007 and 2010 also set the trust centre to trust that folder. Otherwise users will (a) edit it by mistake and (b) send the macros to their clients in the document, then find the document gets rejected due to containing macros.

Ian.

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Thank you for confirming that the Style and Paragraph formats are intricately connected. I think in Word2010, the priority is given to the Styles; even though these Styles are actually based on root Paragraph formatting. Yet a “Numbered List” does NOT have the same functionality as Styles (the double-A icon) labeled as “Heading 1, Heading 2“, etc. These are the ones that are even more broke :mellow: than prior Word versions. Due credit must still be given to Office/Word, as it provides many work-arounds to many encountered problems.
Have you considered using the dreaded Acrobat for your ‘form/template’ design and entry requirements? AcroX is nice and secure now for collaborative environments.
I am not certain if you are aware that the new Word now allows directly saving as a *.pdf (‘Save As…’ command, which now is complicated with the overdue 4-character extensions, such as the *.docx or *.docm).

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Ian, pseudoid:

One source of the apparent ‘broken-ness’ of outline numbering starting in Word 2007, is that the way styles and numbered lists get associated, was changed. Most Word 2003 and earlier users were familiar with creating outline numbered lists by modifying a style – for instance, going to Heading 1 and then drilling down to modify the style’s numbering.

The association between styles and outline numbered lists in Word 2007/2010 (now ‘multilvel lists’) didn’t really change in any functional way; you just need to go to a different place to access the numbering elements. The following are pretty foolproof steps for setting up a stable multilevel list:

[*] With your cursor in a paragraph that is an example of the style that you want to use for Level 1 of the list – for instance, Heading 1 – go to the Ribbon, in the paragraph group, click on the Multilevel List button, and then on ‘Define New Multilevel List’ (Note: despite the wording, you go here both to create new multilevel lists, as well as to modify existing ones.) This will make the ‘Define New Multilevel List’ dialog appear – which is virtually identical to the former outline numbering dialog.
[*] If necessary, click on the ‘More’ button at the bottom left to see the entire dialog.
[*] Step through each level and assign a style to each level, in the ‘Link level to style:’ dropdown.
[*] Apply every level of the list here, and then click OK to exit the dialog.

Notes:

[*] If you ever need to modify an existing multilevel list (no matter which level of the list), always start with your cursor in a paragraph that has the Level 1 style applied, and then go to the Define New Multilevel List dialog and make the necessary changes.
[*] If you need to have more than one multilevel list in a document or a template, you must associate each list with a completely different set of styles – so if Heading 1 – Heading 9 is used for one list, you’ll need to create a second set of styles for the purpose of associating with a second multilevel list.
[*] Your users should never need to use the List Gallery at all – if they need numbering, they apply the styles that have been associated with the numbering they need.
[*] Whether in the user interface or via macros, the List Gallery shouldn’t be relied on – just set up the lists as described above, and everything should stay sane and stable.

Gary

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Exactly Gary. Multilevel lists are fundamentally broken and only careful handling by someone who knows what they are doing can save them!

There’s a very good explanation of the pitfalls and how to avoid them on a blog somewhere, but I can’t now find the bookmark.

Ian

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As creator of this thread I have solved my problem, and it is remarkably simple. Goto Word Options > Proofing > Autocorrect > Autoformat as you type > Select the 2nd option at the bottom of vthe box “Set left – and first indent with tabs and backspaces”
Not only does this activate the tab option and shift tab move back up the list, but pressing Enter also moves back up the list.
Mike

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Multilevel lists are fundamentally broken and only careful handling by someone who knows what they are doing can save them!

There’s a very good explanation of the pitfalls and how to avoid them on a blog somewhere, but I can’t now find the bookmark.

Ian

Ian, I just posted a question in which (I think) the broken multi-level numbering is the root cause. And now that my user has messed it up, I’m pretty much SOL unless I start over. Oh, Microsoft, thank you so much for Word 2007.

If you find that blog, please post it or PM me the link!

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A good place to start learning about outline list numbering is http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/numbering20072010.html

Personally, I always use macros to set, control and modify list numbering. This requires a template to house the macros but the results are very stable and predictable and problems are resolved instantly at the click of a button.

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Thanks for posting that link, Shauna gives a very clear description. A few things come to mind though:

First, setting up the default list template is a long job even for an MVP, and if you allow users access to the list gallery they can destroy it with a couple of clicks, especially if they play while on a lower level heading. WHY don’t Microsoft supply Word with this already set up? Why aren’t the heading styles already cascaded from each other? Why do the default multi-level lists tie all levels to the List Para style? Why, if you create an outline of Heading styles, then apply multi-level list formatting (1, 1.1., 1.1.1), do all levels get level 1? Its just rubbish!

Shauna recommends using the default heading styles for very good reasons. I recommended NOT using them. The issue is cut and paste. Shauna mentions this in her section 7. When you cut and paste between Word documents Word can bring across formatting and styles from the source document. Suddenly your new document is all messed up because Word has picked up formatting from the old document, and old documents often have different or messed up formatting. By using all-new styles you prevent Word affecting existing paragraphs with the same style names. You can stop Word messing up (usually!), but I find the mechanism is beyond most user’s abilities.

If you need to retain all those features that mandate use of default styles, tell your users to ALWAYS paste plain text and reformat afterwards. Again, why do Microsoft do that? Is their main customer base home users wanting to write shopping lists, or is it corporates wanting to produce professional looking letters and reports?

Next, as Shauna says, those innocent indent and number buttons on the toolbar are devilishly clever. They do different things depending on what they see. To get an idea of how clever, take some well formatted text then use the buttons a few times to add and remove numbers, indent and outdent paragraphs. How long before you’ve got a complete mess? So rewrite the macros for those buttons so instead of being clever they are deterministic. Users like deterministic. (Actually these buttons work fairly reliably in Word 2010 as long as you start with a well-structured list style – someone in MS listened!)

Finally, does anyone have a good solution for the case where body text paragraphs have to be numbered following the headings. I’m sure a lot of corporates use that system (Consider “I refer to the statement in paragraph 2.5.9” vs “I refer to the statement in the ninth paragraph of section 2.5” vs “I refer to the statement in paragraph 306”). You can define 2 levels of headings and make Normal the 3rd level, but what if someone needs 3 levels in section 5 of a complex report? Redesign the list style between sections? I just get stroppy and tell them if they want 3 levels they’re on their own.

Multi-level lists are the devil’s spawn in Word.

Rant over for this post!

Ian.

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Thanks for posting that link, Shauna gives a very clear description. A few things come to mind though:

First, setting up the default list template is a long job even for an MVP, and if you allow users access to the list gallery they can destroy it with a couple of clicks, especially if they play while on a lower level heading. WHY don’t Microsoft supply Word with this already set up? Why aren’t the heading styles already cascaded from each other? Why do the default multi-level lists tie all levels to the List Para style? Why, if you create an outline of Heading styles, then apply multi-level list formatting (1, 1.1., 1.1.1), do all levels get level 1? Its just rubbish!.

MS does have this already set up, as a multilevel list (1 Heading 1, 1.1. Heading 2, and so on) in both W2007 & 10. Shauna’s directions are for creating list styles. My usual advice is to use the built-in multilevel list schemes (the icons in the list library section of the gallery) unless customizations are needed. For simple customizations, such as changing the link-level-to-style settings, this is still the less error prone way to go. For me, the typical fix for a slightly messed up list is to reapply the heading styles (select all instances of a style and reapply it). For worse messes, it’s to select the whole document and choose none for the multilevel list type; go to the first heading 1 (or equivalent) in the document and apply the wanted multilevel list scheme; and then reapply the heading styles. Needless to say, if the document is not well structured or has manual formatting applied to the heading styles or the numbering, there’s more to do.

Shauna recommends using the default heading styles for very good reasons. I recommended NOT using them. The issue is cut and paste. Shauna mentions this in her section 7. When you cut and paste between Word documents Word can bring across formatting and styles from the source document. Suddenly your new document is all messed up because Word has picked up formatting from the old document, and old documents often have different or messed up formatting. By using all-new styles you prevent Word affecting existing paragraphs with the same style names. You can stop Word messing up (usually!), but I find the mechanism is beyond most user’s abilities.

W2007/10’s behavior is different from W2003’s. The default for pasting between documents when styles conflict is “Use destination Styles”. I have sometimes worked with the setting on Keep source formatting. The pasted Heading 1s looked like those in the source document all right, but they were manually formatted that way. Underneath, my style was not changed. In W2007/10, we have more control over pasting defaults, and on-the-fly text only pasting is, finally, a click option.

Finally, does anyone have a good solution for the case where body text paragraphs have to be numbered following the headings. I’m sure a lot of corporates use that system (Consider “I refer to the statement in paragraph 2.5.9” vs “I refer to the statement in the ninth paragraph of section 2.5” vs “I refer to the statement in paragraph 306”). You can define 2 levels of headings and make Normal the 3rd level, but what if someone needs 3 levels in section 5 of a complex report? Redesign the list style between sections? I just get stroppy and tell them if they want 3 levels they’re on their own.

Yes, but I worked it out in test documents. I’ve never had call to do it for a client. If you are interested, post back.

Pam

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Thanks Pam, you’re quite right on point 1. I set up a clean install of Office 2007 and the default 6th multi-level list style is set up correctly for heading styles. My old 2003 styles are all over the shop, as are most of the office PCs I look at. I guess most people, including me, break the gallery before they learn how to use it.

On point 2, your mileage may vary. I get weird things in 2003 (most offices I see are still using 2003, like most offices are still using WinXP). For example pasting a few paragraphs from one document to another regularly damages the formatting of the page headings including oddities like reversing the bold/not bold attributes. Mostly I can clear that with Q but if the bolding goes it has to be restored piecemeal. Word seems to be pasting more than just the text and paragraph formatting. Certainly pasting numbered paragraphs from an old document based on a badly structured template appears to damage the list gallery.

I still believe the list gallery concept was a feature too far for Word and although it seems a lot better in Office 2007/2010, 10 years of trouble and strife hasn’t been worth it. Numbering was fine in Word 6.

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