Before you jump in with a knee-jerk reaction, realize that there are some compelling arguments. What do you think?
[See the full post at: AskWoody Plus Newsletter 16.1.0 Woody’s Windows Watch: Would you pay to rent Windows?]
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AskWoody Plus Newsletter 16.1.0 Woody’s Windows Watch: Would you pay to rent Windows?
- This topic has 43 replies, 31 voices, and was last updated 6 years, 3 months ago.
AuthorViewing 33 reply threadsAuthor-
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The first issue of the Newsletter has just been published. For of the sections are available topics on the main blog page. The button “Newsletter/Alerts” in the top bar may be accessible at this time to everyone to view the Newsletter in its entirety. Eventually it will be a AskWoody Plus perk/exclusive. (Or use the “over here.” link)
3 users thanked author for this post.
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No chance what so ever. It is like asking me to pay rent on a house I bought 5 years ago.
CT
10 users thanked author for this post.
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Home-use: It’s like implementing PPP..(Pay Per Patch) given the high quality patches of the last few years, they can do one!
Small Business: the clock is ticking..
Enterprise: no affect whatsoeverWindows - commercial by definition and now function...
I and many of my SMB clients would be willing to pay IF:
We could avoid Open License.
The Microsoft 365 edition would include all the management features of Enterprise Editions.
No minimum seats per site.
Advanced CPU core count and ReFS (Workstation edition?)
Advanced Windows Update management.
Cloud/Azure VM and Desktop rights.
Direct Access/Access anywhere feature set (aka Essentials).
We would get the rights to use “golden masters” (currently also an ENT perk.)
And it included the advanced Defender features announced last year.
And finally, packaged at a discount with Office 365 . . .
~ Group "Weekend" ~
I’d pay a reasonable monthly fee to rent a fully supported Windows 7 from next year on, provided they fixed the reliability issues where patching is concerned. In other words, I’d subscribe to a sensibly priced maintenance package aimed at home users with one or two machines as a means of keeping Windows 7 support viable beyond January 2020.
For me to “upgrade” to a new version of Windows that was entirely based on monthly payments I would need convincing that it was a genuine “upgrade” worth paying for (which Windows 10 is not at present) and that there would still be a way of accessing and using my computers in the event of my ceasing those payments for whatever reason, be it unreliability on MS’s part or financial circumstances on mine etc. I would also need convincing that paying a rental/subscription wasn’t simply a way to obtain all the basic fundamentals that ought to be in the base version to start with! If it offered something extra that I wanted, then I’d happily pay for it.
No.
That would be like leasing a Yugo.
Hey look! Another Feature Update!
You mean I shouldn't click Check for Updates?
Where is the Any key?
2 users thanked author for this post.
I would consider paying under the following circumstances:
1) Microsoft ends ANY and ALL telemetry not required for troubleshooting purposes, and ends the sale of any of this data to third parties for paying subscribers. No ifs, ands, or buts.
2) Microsoft allows me patch control over the operating system. No forcing.
3) Microsoft removes any advertising bits from the operating system attempting to get me to use Edge, or some product (e.g., MineCraft, XBox, etc.). In its stead, they could have some form of newsletter, or opt-in subscription to their offerings.
4) I receive actual quality support for the Windows product from people who are of higher quality than Microsoft AnswerDesk Level I or answers.microsoft.com, both of which provide inferior support (likely because Microsoft either doesn’t pay well, or doesn’t train well).
6 users thanked author for this post.
If and when Microsoft actually CARES about the reliability of their product on a class of computer that they SPECIFY, so hardware providers can comply, I’d consider it. But, Microsoft’s own practices undermine our confidence in their products so thoroughly, it’s unreasonable to expect they’ll suddenly have a change of heart and actually CARE about the customers’ experience. Their attitude is simply, “Hey, we have your money, what else do you expect from us???”
“Updates” are a public admission of a failure of robust design and implementation.
Give us a product that is stable, and can grow with new hardware as it emerges. Design and implement it with good, robust programming practices, expose the ARCHITECTURE to anyone who wants to understand HOW its’ supposed to function, with the goal of not REQUIRING arcane bug fixes to overcome original programming errors, only offer performance/feature upgrades, instead of monthly bug fixes (that, in themselves, are usually bug-laden), and I’d consider “renting” the product.
How is it that I can buy an automobile today and expect it to work for years, but I can’t buy a Windows that is predictable and reliable for more than a month or so, and which then must have frequent “maintenance” updates to keep it functional? It’s because there is an insufficiently robust design methodology behind all Microsoft software products.
Fix that overwhelming suite of bad practices, prove to me the product is reliable for my needs for at least a few years at a time, and I’d consider “renting” the product. Until then, we’re stuck in the dark ages of computing, with bugs and fixes required for an inadequately designed, implemented and tested product.
I think I would finally make the move to Linux as my full time OS before paying rent. My Windows OS computer usage gets less and less enjoyable as I grow older. M$ will outlive me for sure.
A new Windows ad might start off: “For less than 10 cents a day you can drive …”(snip long winded reply)
1 user thanked author for this post.
Answering as a consumer: Considering the general cost scale for Cloud-based software (paying full price over the course of 12 months): No. I already pay for Pro licenses. Most of them are Win8. I bought mine for $50 for 5 PCs when they were on special, imagine if I had to pay 5x$200 every. Single. Year. That’s a cost of $250 dollars vs 5x200x6, or over $6,000.
No. Just no.
What another Monthly bill? Do you think I am nuts Mr Nadella?
110% reliability, decent quality patching, the ability to remove useless “fluff” easily without resorting to Power Shell, Xbox and the like that I never have, or will use, a “Cast Iron” Guarantee that there’s no more “Snooping”, no more Ads, handing back complete control to me or as to near complete as it was of yore.
Oh and don’t forget to throw a decent copy of Office in there, not that C2R/Office2019/365 Nonsense something where I can control the patches say Office 2016 is decent enough, i’ll settle for that.
Then maybe we will talk, I dunno $5 a month? you can bundle it with the Cable/Internet and Phone that fluctuates Month to Month so I probably wont notice too much 😉3 users thanked author for this post.
Having Windows as a subscription service may be of value to some, though I’d definitely prefer a one-time price that includes a known “service” period.
I dislike the move toward “rentier capitalism” that’s enamored businesses over the last 10 or 15 years. (Just one example: the push for ever-lengthening copyrights so profits can continue to be extracted for longer periods of time.)
There are monthly bills that I don’t take issue with, though: water, electricity, phone, internet access and so on. These are clearly services or metered resources. But to me, an OS should be more like a one-time product with a given support period — a clearly defined, time-limited thing. Similar to buying a car with a 5 year 50K mile bumper-to-bumper warrantee. After the support/warrantee period, the dimes on me. But at least it’s my choice.
From Wikipedia: “Current usage of the term ‘rentier capitalism’ describes the gaining of ‘rentier’ income from ownership or control of assets rather than from capital or labour used for production in a ‘free’ competitive market.”
Win10 Pro x64 22H2, Win10 Home 22H2, Linux Mint + a cat with 'tortitude'.
5 users thanked author for this post.
As a business? Sure.
As a home user? Lol. Get out.
If I rented it MS could turn round in a year or two and change it beyond recognition, or simply switch it off, they have my **** in their hands.
When I own something, I have control. It still works years later and it’s up to me what I do with it. Unless on W10 of course..
One problem with setting up recurring payments is that sometimes it can be really hard to stop them when one does not want the service anymore.
Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).
MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV2 users thanked author for this post.
I’m sorry, Woody, but what are the compelling arguments for renting Windows?
I have another perspective. I’m someone that has bounced around from able-bodied employed, disabled employed, and disabled and unable to work, for 20+ years. That wasn’t a straight line of progression… and it played havoc with depleting my savings and periodically pulling my income from me. People who haven’t had to deal with this may assume that there are resources that disabled can access, but in truth, I’ve been without any income for 5-6 months at a time, while ‘resources’ could be approved. I don’t rent anything. If I was renting Windows, I’d be involuntarily on again/off again… and especially when I am unable to work, or leave the house, my computer becomes a life saver, giving me access to a larger, more interactive, and normal world.
I’m sure that a company that focuses on milking their customers for all they can get simply disregards those of us that can’t achieve a living wage, let alone a comfortable one… yet for many disabled folks, the ability to access the internet, to communicate, learn, interact, and even work on-line, opens up the world, for less money and energy than almost anything else.
A lot of people are saying they’d be willing to rent if Microsoft offered something of more value… and are willing to look at a computer OS as a glorified cell phone… but for a rather a large number of people, such renting can become a barrier to accessing services any time their income falters. These aren’t lazy, or addicted, or (add other disparaging label here) people who choose this particular path. Maybe Microsoft doesn’t see it this way, but the equivalent of wheel chair access to buildings needs to be present for everyone to access the internet… and it is amazing how much people can accomplish when such barriers to access are overcome or removed… we become able to do so much more…
There are times I haven’t been able to keep my internet access paid for, but I was still able to use and benefit from my computer… being creative and productive, rather than stewing in my limitations…
One other objection to renting Windows- Microsoft has broken trust with me, over and over, in trying to force me into W10, forcing telemetry, forcing updates, forcing unwanted apps and advertising, forcing local searches to Bing… using malware tactics to enforce their bullying. While I might purchase a particular product from them, if it met my needs, I do not want to really partner with, or support their tactics. So, no, I won’t be renting Windows from them.
Non-techy Win 10 Pro and Linux Mint experimenter
11 users thanked author for this post.
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Compelling arguments for whom, MS or the user? For MS is gives a much more even and reliable income stream and more control of what the users have as they will have more freedom to push out ‘upgrades’. For the user, it really depends. I would say for most there is no compelling argument to have an MS subscription but the opposite; there is no real value in the subscription but money out the door. A few will have a compelling reason to opt for the subscription as will add value for them, though I am hard pressed to find one myself.
As far as the plight of those who are not flush with cash, a subscription makes someone to install Linux a more reasonable option as Linux distros are almost always free to get.
I bought this computer like I bought my house. Asking for rent is just getting seriously greedy.
Microsoft’s love for the subscription model makes me want to vomit. How about if you release quality software and patches that work? I think your customers would appreciate that more than being asked to pay a monthly subscription fee just to use their computer.
Apple and Google do not make you pay a subscription to use macOS, iOS, Chrome OS, and Android, so why should Microsoft feel the need to be different?
1 user thanked author for this post.
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” The simple answer is that if you don’t like Microsoft Windows and the licensing terms to which you have agreed, uninstall it and install some distro of Linux; buy a Mac. ”
Inconvenient for some, OK by me. I already have a Mac, with no complaints. For others it could be Linux. For an old person unfamiliar with what makes their computer tick, living frugally on small Social Security deposits from month to month, well… they should either pay up or have a teenage computer wizard grandson or granddaughter to help them out, right?
Bottom line: There is no pat answer to the question of how appropriate is for MS to charge people for getting continuing Windows 7 support past the official EOL. Or, more generally, for having something that was bought once, presumably for good, being changed by the company selling it to an “as a service” deal subject to recurring payments (and MS would not be the only one doing that). It depends on the user’s situation — and what the trade offs may be — is the best one can say, in my opinion.
Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).
MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV1 user thanked author for this post.
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Folks who bring up Microsoft’s licensing terms provide the best reason for ditching Windows forthwith and, for that matter, anything made by Microsoft. “Compelling arguments,” indeed…
Keep reminding everyone!
1 user thanked author for this post.
Probably not. This whole software rental thing is coming at a bad time in my career. I’m in my 60’s and retirement is relatively close. I can forsee myself and my wife living on a fixed income and I will be compelled to cut monthly expenses that will eat into my limited income. We will do without quite a few things we currently enjoy. Software rental is an easy NO for me, for the same reason that we have bought our vehicles without incurring debt. Monthly payments are a good way to ruin a pleasant retirement with worry.
1 user thanked author for this post.
Where all of this may be heading is for many users, very similar to where Google is heading after Chrome OS.
Both Microsoft and Google are heading toward Cloud Desktop paradigms. Google’s approach so far is app-centric. Microsoft has Azure Cloud Services, which is more all-encompassing. It’s going to be for most of us much like extending Office 365 to cover all of the major OS features, plus the entire Microsoft Store of apps.
Google will eventually charge subscriptions to those who continue to use whatever their Chromebooks may morph into. And modifying the devices to run Linux will no longer be possible, due to Fuchsia OS no longer using the Linux kernel as its basis. Among other changes which will almost certainly take place.
Microsoft likely will not tie its Cloud OS to the Surface line of hardware, though they certainly could do that. The devices which would be tied to subscription Cloud Desktop environments would be locked into S Mode or something like it, and running anything offline would provide only very limited features. The idea is to make the local device serve only as the launchpad to get you up into the Cloud, where all your major work is conducted, and all your outputs are stored.
Because it’s a Cloud platform, everyone will be on the same version, have the same basic features, and users will have no input about updating or security. All logins will be MS Cloud Account logins.
Desktop, fully paid OS and applications will be offered for a time, as they are now. But not forever. Over time, if you want a local OS with local storage, you’ll need a custom-built PC with enough hardware resources, and a local OS, like many Linux distros will still be. (Ubuntu and Mint, and probably Fedora will likely also become Cloud Desktop environments. I base this upon the close ties between IBM and Fedora, and between Microsoft and Ubuntu, which will only grow closer over time.)
So would I pay a reasonable fee to remain in the loop about Google and Microsoft and their cloud services? No. I don’t pay for Apple now, because they have a hardware and software price structure which is beyond my idea of reasonable. So I would most likely not find enough value in Windows or Google’s next OS to be willing to pay just to be able to tell folks that I know what they are talking about when they ask about their personal devices and the issues they are having with them. For my own personal use I already have next to nothing which Linux is not doing for me, for which I would pay anyone else to provide those features or that file type compatibility.
I believe that there will always be local, one-time paid or free to download and use computing environments and applications. Most likely, these will be Linux distros and Free and Open Source Software. The hardware will increasingly be build it yourself, but I already do that with my Intel NUC and any of its successors. There will always be a few of us who prefer the control and privacy of owning our own hardware and storage, and being responsible for our own computing successes and failures.
Let the others (which means the vast majority of people and businesses) pay the piper for convenience vs. control, and ease of access (you simply plug it in and you’re ready to go) vs. privacy. It isn’t just the monetary outlays which bother me about the current trends with Windows, Google and Apple. It’s the other prices people seem only too willing to pay, without really thinking about the long-term consequences.
-- rc primak
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Computers with local storage and no cloud dependencies won’t be going away completely, there’ll be off-the-shelf models still. Though it’s quite possible that eventually it’ll just be equivalents of the current “power workstation” types and up.
Because, well, such things as mechanical engineering / analysis, medical imaging / modeling and other such fields do produce large amounts of “temporary” data which is quite unlikely to be cost-effective to transfer to cloud and back every time. Especially as some of the instrumentation is driven by that data in near-realtime. (Sheesh, a “powergaming”-class GPU and extra USB buses for a medical workstation…)
And that’s not getting into information security. That Dutch GDPR hassle Microsoft has with Office 365 really hasn’t helped…
Oh well, it’ll be years before a cloud model for just the basic desktop functions would be even theoretically possible for some of our users. It’s a question of connectivity / coverage and will be for some time still.
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“The idea is to make the local device serve only as the launchpad to get you up into the Cloud, where all your major work is conducted, and all your outputs are stored.”
What you just described sounds exactly like mainframe computing to me. We’re going backwards in a sense.
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What you just described sounds exactly like mainframe computing to me. We’re going backwards in a sense.
And I was never too pleased with mainframe: data loss, no backups, profound delay time share, inaccessible printers, unexplained down time, huge fees.
On permanent hiatus {with backup and coffee}
offline▸ Win10Pro 2004.19041.572 x64 i3-3220 RAM8GB HDD Firefox83.0b3 WindowsDefender
offline▸ Acer TravelMate P215-52 RAM8GB Win11Pro 22H2.22621.1265 x64 i5-10210U SSD Firefox106.0 MicrosoftDefender
online▸ Win11Pro 22H2.22621.1992 x64 i5-9400 RAM16GB HDD Firefox116.0b3 MicrosoftDefender
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The future is now for Windows 7 Enterprise.
“As an alternative, Microsoft is offering all three years of ESUs to customers of the new Windows Virtual Desktop (WVD) service at no extra cost. This service offers cloud-hosted virtual machines running Windows 7 plus whatever applications are needed, and those virtual machines will continue to be patched into 2023. WVD uses existing Windows Enterprise E3 licenses, and it runs on the full range of Azure virtual machines, with no additional costs incurred. This includes, for example, GPU-equipped VMs, meaning that WVD should be usable for a wide range of workloads, just as long as running them in the cloud in the first place is acceptable.”
Microsoft has their foot in that door. How long before offerings similar to the above become an option for consumer-grade Windows is anyone’s guess, but it seems like a “when”, not an “if”.
Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.We were all once "Average Users".1 user thanked author for this post.
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