When the April Monthly Rollup for Win7 and 8.1 appears, a whole lot of people are going to wonder what hit them.
[See the full post at: A crisis looms for Win7 and 8.1 customers with recently-built computers]
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Patch reliability is unclear, but widespread attacks make patching prudent. Go ahead and patch, but watch out for potential problems. |
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A crisis looms for Win7 and 8.1 customers with recently-built computers
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At least they were a little honest and announced that one year ahead
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We need a little more info on your computer.
Did you build it or have it built (as opposed to buying ready-built)?
What processor do you have? What version of Windows?See this thresd for information https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/first-sightings-of-the-win7-update-block-for-kaby-lake-and-ryzen-processors/
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It’s….. complicated.
See the InfoWorld article.
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Broadwell is fine, if you can get it. There weren’t too many Broadwell chips made.
Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server1 user thanked author for this post.
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I don’t see how in all honesty MS can say that they are providing extended support for Windows 7 until January 2020 and Windows 8.1 until January 2023 and then in 2017 pick and choose which bits of hardware you must have those systems installed on in order to get that extended support. It’s just another dishonest attempt to pressurise users into upgrading to Windows 10.
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Who is in for the big jolt in April? Probably all those people who bought PCs for loved ones or as a me-treat at Christmas (2016), or on Black Friday (2016), or Cyber Monday (2016), and Boxing Day (2017). There were a lot of good prices for 2015 systems and some of those were Sky Lake systems. The new Kaby Lake systems were out in November 2016. AMD 7th gen came out in October 2016. The 7th gen and some 6th gen systems ended up on Microsoft’s naughty list. I would say a high number of users are unaware of the ban even though the MS announcement was published by most tech sites. We just have to come to grips with the fact that not everyone follows the tech world. If these users happen to prefer W7 or W8 they may have downgraded or had someone to do it for them. Considering the number of people I know who have ditched W10 after suffering through it for several months, I assume there are quite a few outside my orbit who feel the same.
– I use W10, W8.1, W7 and Linux and I used to teach OS coding. I was also an OS code tester (can not mention the corp, but I will leave it up to your imagination). W10 is a real piece of work. -
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If this works out the way I think it will (by no means a guarantee!), I’d be willing to bet that manually downloading and installing the Security-Only update will work. It’s not at all clear if, after doing the “Group B” thing, you’ll be able to use Windows Update to look for and install other patches.
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“It’s not at all clear if, after doing the “Group B” thing, you’ll be able to use Windows Update to look for and install other patches.”
What’s also not at all clear is whether you’ll want to.
The number of people deciding to drop Windows Updates well before it was due to be forced on them by the end of extended support seems likely to be growing monthly. It’s almost as if that’s what MS want them to do, they’re making it so tempting to reach that decision.
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I am a victim. I built mine a year ago with the i5 6600. I thought I was clear. Been had by the failing MS, again.
I am not too concerned since I generally regard Windows Update as a no-go altogether.
My concern is about drivers. Any one have any ideas???
CT
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Surely microsoft should offer a free upgrade to all with affected hardware if they have W7 or W8.1 pre-installed and was purchased within a time/date scale criteria or would that be too sensible?
The upgrade from Win7 or Win8.1 to Win10 is free, and it has always been free. Microsoft just doesn’t want to advertise the fact…
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The upgrade from Win7 or Win8.1 to Win10 is free, and it has always been free. Microsoft just doesn’t want to advertise the fact…
“There is no such thing as a free lunch”. It’s just that in this case you don’t pay with money.
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D**n, that was quite tricky from them! I just bought Skylake myself, because I thought there will be no issues with W8.1… Well, it will be either just more fun with updates or I will just ignore updating.
As mentioned earlier – as long as there will be 3rd party software working on 8.1 and new drivers from NVIDIA released, I don’t really care about Windows Update.
Edited for content – Please follow the Lounge Rules
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Woody, several of your sentences in your article have the structure “If …something… you’re out of luck.”
Are you sure about that?
What is Microsoft delivering to us lately that make Windows Updates Good Things To Have for Windows 7 or 8.1 users?
I’m not being snarky and I’m not being naïve, I’m being serious. I know what benefit having the OS vendor be a good partner brings. I’ve kept my Windows systems up to date throughout my long career, and I remember the systems I worked with even before there was a Microsoft.
But I think this deserves a real conversation now because there ARE increasing downsides, and the upsides may be waning. This isn’t your father’s Microsoft!
There are problems lately just in the process of getting Microsoft’s updates – we’re seeing monthly updates bring new bugs, then later fixes upon fixes to mitigate them, unknown new bugs/vulnerabilities in the patches – not to mention months-long waits before getting security fixes, hours/days long waits just to run the Windows Update process… It all adds up in my book to a difference in the cost of taking updates, or at least a need to re-evaluate.
And updates are sometimes now bringing things people DON’T want; Increased telemetry, prep of a system for update to Windows 10, and even advertisements (*cough* GWX)…
Can we assume recent results are an indication of future performance? How can we not? Microsoft is re-defining itself, and not necessarily for our benefit.
Lastly, you might say: Security patches. Thing is, there are steps people can take to protect themselves from malware that are better than the typical “invite it in then try to squash it as it tries to take over” technique. And we’ve seen some months-long delays. Did the Windows universe crash and burn? Seems to me it didn’t.
I’ll be honest – I myself have a superb security environment, and I have already stopped taking Windows 7 updates, save for specific security updates to Internet Explorer. I may not go further than last December’s updates on my Win 8.1 systems from here on either, based on the performance of the March updates. I’ve not seen a downside to that, and in fact I’ve saved a lot of time and worry.
While no longer having the Microsoft we once knew as a partner is certainly disappointing, maybe not getting any more updates to Win 7 and 8.1 from today’s Microsoft is not a bug, it’s a feature…
Thoughts?
-Noel
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MS doesn’t take into account that W10 is definitely not 100% virus/malware/ransomware free – and the more Windows machines not patched, the bigger the risk those with W10 will be infected. Their choice, I can take care of my computer myself.
My mom used an Win XP system until Dec 2016 – Avast, Thunderbird, Firefox fully updated and no issues at all. She didn’t need anything else.
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Woody, can I suggest you make Noel’s post a separate article in itself?
I believe there are many people who will empathise with it, myself included.
What is certain is that we are fast reaching the point where the threat to our computers from Microsoft is greater than the threat from other sources of malware. What is not certain, however, is whether we are already there. That is the debate we need to have.
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Noel –
Care to start a new Topic?
This would be a good one in the Win10 forums.
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Better yet, why not a “Just Say No to MS Patches” forum covering 7, 8.1 and 10?
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I’ll try to put together a summary post ASAP. My tax return needs attention, though.
-Noel
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I’m not sure my security system is as good as yours, but in general it has kept me safe for decades, but then there have not been malevolent corporations like now. On that issue alone users should not migrate to Win10, but I won’t hold my breath and those who do deserve what they get.
There is absolutely NO ADDED VALUE WHATSOEVER in Win10 relative to Win7. It is entirely a product invented exclusively for MS’s needs, with only liabilities and no usefulness for users. If you look at it feature by feature it has nothing compelling or that has been asked for. In fact, one of the first issues was a demand to bring back an Win7 feature –the Start Menu. Since then, name one feature that is due to user demand, all their rings notwithstanding. At this point MS is completely disconnected from users.
F****d up Windows, dropped the phone ball, cloud outages — apparently you gotta be a total failure to get tens of millions of dollars in compensation. Ask Marissa Meyer and Satya Nadella. Why bother with customers when you can get filthy rich from screwing them.
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I could not agree with you more, Noel.
The risk of MS fouling up out Win7 systems is far greater than the risk we take having not applied some security patch that some hacker might use. In fact, the MS foul-up is guaranteed and the hacker threat is only a possibility which can be mitigated to a great degree.
MS is even fouling up Office. I had made the mistake of applying them to one of my client’s machines a week ago or so and last night had to uninstall them.
Time to have a full backup of your OS and close WU down forever.
CT
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‘Microsoft Loves DIY PC builders, Enthusiasts and PC Gamers’ ¬
Windows - commercial by definition and now function... -
What a pickle for folks with the affected processors
not a good scenario in any way shape or form. Without getting in to a rant about M$ there may well be ways around it but its a real “song & dance.” Probably involving “the catalogue”, 7zip and the laborious DISM. I only use it on the “Home front” once a year as its time consuming and req. quite a bit of CMD work (there are GUI’s out there that can do it). I think I caught @Woody saying the other day you could probably get round it using DISM and thats probably extracting just the .CAB file (the official way) and adding that with the /add-package CMD. Its a real pain but I believe it strips the .XML/metadata or whatever out (I just add the .MSU files as a rule) but this is far from satisfactory especially on a weekly/monthly basis. I may have to seek @ch100’s wise advice on that one. Like I say I just use it to update /create up to date install images on a yearly basis and thats a pain. As for keeping up with the plethora of daily security signature/updates a positive nightmare Hopefully some one finds an easier work around or M$ crumbles in the face of irrate users pressure. Although I think I did catch somwhere that WSUS updater can work round that. If its the same Prog. I have used before then it downloads the .CAB files rather than the .MSU’s. -
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Sorry about that I was seeking a way to possibly mitigate “whatever’s blocking” the install affected machines. After pulling a few update’s appart (with 7zip) it may not be as simple as deleting the other “Bumf” that comes in a .MSU package and just using the .CAB file. You are probably right in that respect that it may cause more issues than any it may fix.
PS on a lighter note what say you one the possibility of another April roll up aka SP3 on the lines of last years kb3125574 aka SP2? you normally have your nose to the ground on updates etc?
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As I said, corporations are becoming increasingly arrogant and treat customers with contempt and they now have a corporate-govt complex that supports this. The FCC just dropped the privacy rights of ISP customers, allowing the ISPs to sell their data. Here’s what you can expect:
Here’s more evidence about MS:
The fact is most of the tech companies are not competent enough to offer real value to customers and as monopolies or oligopolies have little competition, so the only way they can make lots of money is by extracting wealth, not creating it (except for their very top mgmt and shareholders).
You ain’t seen nothing yet.
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The biggest problem isn’t the Security-Only updates which, as you say, you can download and install manually.
The biggest problem is everything else. We still don’t know exactly what will be turned off next month (if, indeed, ANYTHING is turned off next month). But there’s a lot of ancillary stuff – Office patches, IE updates, .NET updates, Microsoft Security Essentials Updates, and plenty of miscellaneous – that comes through Windows Update.
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I am curious, Sir, do you think that everyone, even here on site, is a power user like you and me?
I can assure you they are not, this site ranges the the gamut form Brand New to novices, right up to advanced Software Engineers, Developers, Sysadmins and DevOps.
It is all to easy for us to lump everyone into the advanced bucket so that we can ignore them….
Just Sayn’…..
Have a Great Day
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SSDs: 6xOS Partitions, 2xW8.1 Main & Test, 2x10.0 Test, Pro, x64
CPU i7 2600 K, SandyBridge/CougarPoint, 4 cores, 8 Threads, 3.4 GHz
Graphics Radeon RX 580, RX 580 ONLY Over Clocked
More perishable2xMonitors Asus DVI, Sony 55" UHD TV HDMI
1. NUC 5i7 2cores, 4 Thread, Memory 8GB, 3.1 GHz, M2SSD 140GB
1xOS W8.1 Pro, NAS Dependent, Same Sony above.-----------------
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I have confirmation from Gigabyte that they will continue to support Windows 7 drivers on their motherboards.
https://twitter.com/GIGABYTEUSA/status/845030209900339202
I’ve asked if they know how their motherboards will handle the anticipated Monthly Rollup next month.
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OK, but….
I assume the Monthly Rollup installer next month will check to see if it’s being installed on one of the machines in the “approved” list.
If Gigabyte is continuing to support Win7, what happens to machines that are built with a Gigabyte motherboard, but aren’t on the “approved” list?
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I still wonder about the legalities of changing Terms & Conditions retrospectively.
In many countries there are laws to make retrospective changes invalid IF they are detrimental to the customer. Stopping updates could be regarded as being detrimental.
Any legal eagles out there?
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
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You might want to take a look at KB3178690, the Excel patch.
Here is some information https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/excel-security-patch-ms17-014-for-excel-2010-kb-3178690-triggering-crashes/The others seem to be OK. But I would WAIT to install any March patch until Woody raises the DEFCON number to 3 or above. At that time he will publish an article with the instructions and the information about what is safe.
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I can confirm there is a real problem with KB3178690, our IT dept rolled it out yesterday and due to Excel problems across the organisation had to uninstall it today.
Keep well away from that one
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I built my computer specifically to ride out with Win7 for as long as I possibly could; which is exactly what I did with Win98 until XP SP2 finally convinced me otherwise. The information I had, as I understood it, was that my Intel Gen 6 CPU would be supported by Win7 (because that wasn’t even a consideration before this BS), and the new Gen 7 would not be. I’m sure there’s a lot I don’t understand (an understatement to be sure), but if the CPU is already supported, it’s supported. Microsoft is removing support and pulling the rug out from under me here, because I fully expect my still new computer to live for no less than 8 years before needing another major upgrade.
I feel lied to and cheated.
P.S. Ya, I’m the guy that accidentally installed the preview monthly rollup KB4012218
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Installed KB4012218
Check for more updates that got freed up after that patch
*Poof* Got that message
*Ahh* Uninstalled the update
*Runs down the street* “WOODY!!”
And that’s the story of how I came to have an account on this forum. … What was your question again?
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pika256, you were lied to and cheated. So was I. You and I both built new systems with 6th gen processors, with the intent that they will last for years to come.
I have taken steps to lock down my computer. I have become very suspicious of any and all updates. Windows Update is set to never, and it is unlikely I will ever consider a WU again. The important thing is that this has convinced me that Microsoft and “windows” are no-go places that I never want to spend money for again.
CT
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b, I think the “where” is in Canada
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Not sure that I could agree with that analogous logic, sorry. New iPhones come with new iOS already installed.
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@b Why even bother any more?
The level of this blog has gone below any acceptable common-sense standard unfortunately
However, on the brighter side, Woody’s published books are top quality and highly recommended! -
Woody, I am delighted to see the expanded and deeper discussions going on here. This has become a really great oasis. I can easily ignore the irrelevant postings and do in order to find and enjoy the really good ones.
Thanks from an admiring fan
CT
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Apple primarily sells hardware devices that happen to have Apple software running on them.
Microsoft primarily sells software that runs on whatever hardware you (or the OEM MS sold Windows to for resale) supply.
Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon 6.2
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They can do it because nobody cares about 8.1. Which is sad since it’s not a bad OS.
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8.1 is the last adult OS from MS, unless they come to their senses. If the world were a less hostile place, the upgrade to 8.1 would be free.
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It’s not useless at all. I find its categories generally easier to comprehend than Control Panel’s (which I’ve used a great deal for many years). Searching Settings for anything is quick and easy (and usually more foolproof than searching Control Panel).
OK, b, I’m quite certain you have some connection with MS (the news about fixing OneDrive in Linux, that wasn’t very widespread – you’re either a huge Linux fan
or MS employee/fan), if Windows 10 is such a perfect product, why is adoption rate so low? Just imagine:a/ Apple is announcing they’re giving new iPhone 7 for free to everybody that will show up with any older iPhone – what would be adoption rate? 99%?
b/ BMW is advertising “We’re giving away brand new 3-series to everybody with 10-years or newer 3-series”; how many would switch? 99%?
c/ a bit closer – MS is saying “You bought Office 2010 or 2013? Get Office 2016 for free!”, I’m sure vast majority would take it without hesitation.
So… where’s the issue with flawless Win 10 at 25% market share?
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Microfix, Agreed. I and my clients are group W. Amazingly, we have not applied updates since September. My clients demand for my help has fallen off quite dramatically. Stable, unchanging systems. No infections. No threats. Just systems that keep on doing what they are supposed to do and what we paid for.
CT
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BECAUSE Windows 8.1 is still in mainstream support.
Not even to mention, that I am 99% sure you could install XP today and install all the updates on Kaby Lake without any errors. If I had an ISO, I could even try…
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If they were simply “not supporting” Windows 7 being installed on latest-gen platforms, that would be fine. Windows 7 doesn’t support USB 3.0 either, but it works quite well without Microsoft’s support.
Telling people that installing 7 or 8.1 on a Kaby Lake or Ryzen system won’t work because only Windows 10 has the special code required to run new CPUs (when people who have done it have proven this to be a lie), that is not fine. Trying to strongarm the hardware OEMs into not providing chipset drivers for Windows versions that represent two thirds of the Windows market (which is obviously not in the interest of the chip makers) is not okay. Finally, it is most certainly not okay for Microsoft to use the update process to sabotage fully working (including updates) installations of Windows 7.
Can there be any doubt that something that permanently breaks the ability to get updates is malware? Some people bristled when some of us called GWX malware… at the very least, it was adware with a lot of malware-like characteristics. This, however, is unbridled malware. Hopefully, we’ll never see it in the wild.
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Acer Swift Go 14, i5-1335U/16GB, Kubuntu 24.04 (and Win 11) -
Can there be any doubt that something that permanently breaks the ability to get updates is malware? Some people bristled when some of us called GWX malware… at the very least, it was adware with a lot of malware-like characteristics. This, however, is unbridled malware. Hopefully, we’ll never see it in the wild.
It’s ransomware actually – what is a difference between “pay 100 USD or you won’t be able to access data on your drive” and “pay at least 119 USD for W10 or you won’t be able to update your OS you paid for”?
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Malware definition:” software that is intended to damage or disable computers and computer systems.”
Breaking Windows update is damaging a computer system.
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Honestly I stopped doing any windows updates months ago and haven’t noticed any real problems. It seems like the updates are all for MS benefit and none for the users anymore. I don’t have issues with corporations in general, just their bloated obscene levels of self serving behavior of late to the point it seems to harm it’s users/consumers.
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People are installing Windows 7 om Ryzen CPUs and it runs like a charm. This is only bullcrap from MS, another pathetic excuse to try to force-feed the abomination through murdering Windows 7 by decree.
As Noel says, come to this point running Windows 7 with disabled updates is a feature, not a bug. For Microsoft just can’t be trusted at all anymore, expose your computers to their malware at your own risk …
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Here’s my interpretation of the issue:
Microsoft provides the software – Windows. At one point, MS said that it would provide security updates for SkyLake processors until Win7/8.1 EOL (2020/2023). Win7 is already out of mainstream support. Win8.1 will follow next year. MS did not say it would provide full support (features and non-security fixes) for those OSs until EOL. It has never done so.
The OEMs provide the hardware that Win runs on. They supply the drivers for this hardware. How often the advice – “Don’t use MS drivers; get them from the OEMs or the manufacturers.
As of Mar 2017, the PREVIEW Rollup installs a block for Windows Update for SkyLake and later processors – apparently a hardware check for processor type. As of April, the PREVIEW will be incorporated in the Security Monthly Quality ROLLUP, hence the blocker will be present. Since the PREVIEW and the ROLLUP are cumulative, the blocker will be present from now on.
IF THE BLOCKER IS INSTALLED, COMPUTERS WITH SKYLAKE (AND LATER) PROCESSORS WILL BE BLOCKED FORM USING WU.It is NOT the driver for the hardware (or the lack of it) that determines whether WU is available. It is the block installed by MS’s updates.
CONCLUSION:
Don’t install the blocker.
1. Certainly NEVER install the UNCHECKED Optional PREVIEW.
2. Do NOT install April Security Monthly Quality ROLLUP or any subsequent Monthly ROLLUP.
3. If you want updates, join Group B – download security-only and IE11 updates from the Catalog. As yet they don’t contain the blocker. Get the rest from WU. If you have not installed the blocker, WU should still work.
4. Or join Group C/W – no more updates.Now, processors later than SkyLake (Kaby Lake and Ryzen), will probably still be out of luck.
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When the situation is out of your control, sometimes you have to compromise.
Win8.1 is not getting feature updates even if it’s still in mainstream support. IMOH If you think MS is going to do that, you’re dreaming. The best you can hope for is security fixes.
The fallout may Convince MS to change it’s mind, but I doubt it and you can’t count on it. For now, this might work.
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It would seem they have NOT blocked the security fixes (as yet) – unless you installed the March PREVIEW. And with that patch as an UNCHECKED OPTIONAL and the DEFCON number at 2, that shouldn’t be the case.
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Might work. But that seems like taking poison to see if it’s going to kill you
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So the other side of this dilemma raises it’s ugly head.
People’s computers, with 2012 Ivy Bridge processors were, only 3-4 years old when MS started it’s GWX campaign. Many of them (and those with even older processors) were forced/tricked into Win10. And there were those who couldn’t resist FREE. Are they going to be up a creek too?
A lot people can’t afford a new computer with the latest hardware every 3 years!
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I think I am in error about the older processors being able to run Windows 10:
http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/processors/000006105.html
On this webpage, Intel says that Ivy Bridge (3rd Generation) and Braswell (apparently prior to Ivy Bridge) have been validated to support Windows 10.
I know I read something about the pre-Haswell CPUs not being compatible in some way with Windows 10. Perhaps you lose some Windows 10 functionality when you have the older CPUs, even though Windows 10 will run on those CPUs.
At some point, however, with the continual updates to Windows 10, your computer may become obsolete with an update that is pushed down to your computer.
Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server -
Before Ivy Bridge was Sandy Bridge. There is no Braswell, per se; if that term actually exists, I would guess it’s a portmanteau of Haswell and Broadwell meant to refer collectively (and cutely) to both of them at once… like “Brangelina.”
Older CPUs will work fine with 10. I tried 10 on my 2008-manufactured F8Sp laptop with Merom (Core 2 Duo), and it worked perfectly fine. I then tried it on my c. 2005 AMD Turion laptop, and it also worked, though it was slow and ponderous with the <1 GB of RAM on that machine.
You might be thinking of the new requirements that Microsoft imposed upon OEMs preinstalling Windows 10, like Secure Boot. That does not apply to Windows 10 installed as an upgrade; it’s only relevant to preinstalled OEM Windows.
Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon 6.2
XPG Xenia 15, i7-9750H/32GB & GTX1660ti, Kubuntu 24.04
Acer Swift Go 14, i5-1335U/16GB, Kubuntu 24.04 (and Win 11)2 users thanked author for this post.
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“Currently you can Uninstall KB24012218 and restore updates”
So radosuaf’s method for staying in Group A (https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/first-sightings-of-the-win7-update-block-for-kaby-lake-and-ryzen-processors/#post-103898) seems viable.
Also, I did tests of the version of Windows Update Agent (Wuaueng.dll), which abbodi86 has stated contains the code that implements the processor check:
1. Before installation of KB4012218: v7.6.7601.19161.
2. After installation of KB4012218: v7.6.7601.23714.
3. After uninstallation of KB4012218: v7.6.7601.19161.
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I suggest many have paid for standalone software they require access to for work (or other) purposes, which are not compatible with 8.1 or later, some of which will not have had updates written; despite this, it is still required, often for legal reasons. This differs, depending on where you are (i.e. country), and I would not be surprised if it was a fairly long list of such software.
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Very specific versions of some things that use undocumented interfaces become incompatible – e.g., particular antivirus versions or stuff that hacks deeply into system.
There are generally new versions of such things developed for Windows 10, so you might find it convenient to call them “compatible”, per se, but…
Now we get to the “devil in the details” part…
Let’s say someone creates a desirable piece of software. Let’s use “Aero Glass for Win 8+” as an example. Some folks just don’t want to live without it prettying-up their desktop.
Now let’s imagine that some months must pass after each new Windows 10 release before the author – working like mad – can get it to work on the latest release. Essentially he has to discover what Microsoft has done to the undocumented parts of the interface.
That software is no longer continuously compatible with Windows 10, because Microsoft doesn’t want people doing what that software does. I imagine sooner or later the author will get tired of trying to keep up. Meanwhile, someone running it on a stable Windows 8.1 system finds it continues to run fine.
There are others. Seems to me Classic Shell comes up on the “incompatible” list with each new Windows 10 release until the author tweaks it.
-Noel
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6th gen (iX-6XXX, Skylake) and 7th gen (iX-7XXX, Kaby Lake) are affected, the rest is OK.
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For you, and everybody else who is not familiar with Intel processors:
http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/processors/processor-numbers.html
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You are fine with a SandyBridge Processor that as you said Gen 2
One of the Best Generations Intel ever made, that is what I have.
I ain’t given’ it up!!!
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1. Tower Totals: 2xSSD ~512GB, 2xHHD 20 TB, Memory 32GB
SSDs: 6xOS Partitions, 2xW8.1 Main & Test, 2x10.0 Test, Pro, x64
CPU i7 2600 K, SandyBridge/CougarPoint, 4 cores, 8 Threads, 3.4 GHz
Graphics Radeon RX 580, RX 580 ONLY Over Clocked
More perishable2xMonitors Asus DVI, Sony 55" UHD TV HDMI
1. NUC 5i7 2cores, 4 Thread, Memory 8GB, 3.1 GHz, M2SSD 140GB
1xOS W8.1 Pro, NAS Dependent, Same Sony above.-----------------
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Charlie, It is highly likely that it is Sandy Bridge. It is 3rd gen.
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Charlie I am so sorry, all to heck, the Processor name I type was not what I was thinking.
Give it up to Brain Farts
You have this Processor, i3 2120, Yes?
That is a Sandybridge Gen 2 i3 which has some description of the CPU Cores.
It is probably a 2 core processor single threaded BUT that is a bit more nebulous, so you will have to look it up at INTEL. Search on “2120”.The names are the code names that the processors were developed under.
I Humbly corrected my earlier post, Please see and check:
https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/a-crisis-looms-for-win7-and-8-1-customers-with-recently-built-computers/#post-104068Thank You for understanding….
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1. Tower Totals: 2xSSD ~512GB, 2xHHD 20 TB, Memory 32GB
SSDs: 6xOS Partitions, 2xW8.1 Main & Test, 2x10.0 Test, Pro, x64
CPU i7 2600 K, SandyBridge/CougarPoint, 4 cores, 8 Threads, 3.4 GHz
Graphics Radeon RX 580, RX 580 ONLY Over Clocked
More perishable2xMonitors Asus DVI, Sony 55" UHD TV HDMI
1. NUC 5i7 2cores, 4 Thread, Memory 8GB, 3.1 GHz, M2SSD 140GB
1xOS W8.1 Pro, NAS Dependent, Same Sony above.-----------------
1 user thanked author for this post.
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Charlie I am so sorry, all to heck, the Processor name I type was not what I was thinking. Give it up to Brain Farts
You have this Processor, i3 2120, Yes? That is a Sandybridge Gen 2 i3 which has some description of the CPU Cores. It is probably a 2 core processor single threaded BUT that is a bit more nebulous, so you will have to look it up at INTEL. Search on “2120”. The names are the code names that the processors were developed under. I Humbly corrected my earlier post, Please see and check: https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/a-crisis-looms-for-win7-and-8-1-customers-with-recently-built-computers/#post-104068 Thank You for understanding….
Not to worry – I have those BF’s a lot too! My i3 2120 is a dual core with two virtual cores so it looks like a quad core on the device manager. It’s plenty fast for me and what I do, and I’m still happy with it and Win 7. I appreciate all replies and I sort of knew what you were thinking, so no harm done at all.
Being 20 something in the 70's was far more fun than being 70 something in the insane 20's1 user thanked author for this post.
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It has an Intel Core i3 2120, 3.3 GHz processor which I think is second generation. Am I safe? All these Intel codenames like Skylake, Kaby Lake, Broadwell, etc. mean absolutely nothing to me.
Intel Core i3-2120 is indeed second-generation… the 2xxx series means second gen, which is also called Sandy Bridge.
Nehalem or Westmere were the first generation i3/5/7, with three-digit series like i3-xxx.
Ivy Bridge is the third generation; for example i7/3770k (and so on, with each generation’s number in place of the 3 there).
Haswell is fourth-generation.
Broadwell is fifth-generation.
Skylake is sixth-generation.
Kaby Lake is seventh-generation.
Anything Broadwell or earlier should be okay with Windows 7 or 8.1. Anything newer than that… well, the jury is still out.
Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon 6.2
XPG Xenia 15, i7-9750H/32GB & GTX1660ti, Kubuntu 24.04
Acer Swift Go 14, i5-1335U/16GB, Kubuntu 24.04 (and Win 11) -
Woody, this will be interesting to watch after April patchday, as you said.
By now I think we can be reasonably certain that the “block” that will come with the April and later update rollups will, if installed, block any Kaby Lake and Ryzen system users who run Windows 7 and 8.1 from getting further updates via Windows Update. (Unless of course, Microsoft decides it will not be a good idea to implement the block after all, which I believe is not likely to happen.)
But will Skylake system users who run Windows 7 or Windows 8.1 also be blocked in this way?
Woody, have we heard of any Skylake users who installed the March preview and then had their Windows Update disabled? It seems that one user above already tested and Windows Update is working fine afterwards, and therefore the block in the preview apparently does not affect Skylake systems.
And will further security-only updates from the Update Catalog also be blocked from installing on Skylake or later systems? Apparently not now, but in the future?
Lots of questions. Very few answers. We may have to wait until April or later for some of these answers to emerge.
Sure seems my decision back in January 2016 to abandon the Skylake purchase plan and instead turn to X99 (Haswell-E / Broadwell-E) for upgrade is a correct one.
As of now I only install the security-only updates, and then only when Woody says it is safe to install them. But I certainly don’t want that blocking code be installed on my systems, even though I do not use a Skylake / Kaby Lake / Ryzen system now. As a Group B user I will go with PKCano’s recommendations for now. With the observation that the updates from Microsoft seem to be causing more and more problems, it may not be long before I decide to switch from Group B to Group C (at least partially).
Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.
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Office updates are delivered through Microsoft Update. That is basically Windows Update plus other Microsoft products. It uses the same Windows Update Agent and would be blocked as well.
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Most users (home and business) never upgrade to a new version of Windows, they just get one with a new computer. Windows 10 is not perfect or flawless (just better than 7/8).
I haven’t yet upgraded any of my clients because as an IT professional I object to being forced to accept updates and patches that negatively impact my clients’ productivity–updates and patches that MS publishes on a regular basis–so I haven’t yet examined Win 10’s features. Please will you take a moment to tell me what features you think make Win 10 better? Please do keep in mind that feature a gamer or home user might find useful might not work as well in a business environment.
GaryK
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So… where’s the issue with flawless Win 10 at 25% market share?
None. According to your figures it leapt up another 5% today!
Now 30%? -
It’s 30% of Windows, if you add Linux and MacOS, it’ll be around 25%. Besides, depends on who’s presenting the data :).
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So even with the GWX madness and all of the manufactured problems with Windows Updates on older systems, two of three people today still think Windows 10 is unacceptable when compared to its predecessors?
They can’t just be indifferent about it, or they’d have taken the free “upgrade”.
What’s more, they’ve chosen not to buy a new computer with Windows 10 after almost 2 years since the first Windows 10 release, even though consumer-grade computers typically only last a few years.
Come to think of it, two of three people in this very subthread think that.
B, I’m happy that you’ve found what you need from it, but have you stopped to think that other people might be sensing something about Windows 10 and Microsoft’s direction that you aren’t?
-Noel
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Noel, I think the number of people who reject Windows 10, is much greater than 2 in 3. I am active in a lot of venues, both professional and not. I meet with a lot of people. Most of them know of my extensive computer background. So, they frequently discuss computer issues of all sorts with me.
I have yet to find a single one who has purchased a new computer since last October, and in all cases that they bought new computers in the last year or so, they were Windows 7 computers. With the exception of Apple-lovers, they all have Windows 7 and have recently invested in efforts and hardware to assure its extended life. I don’t know of one person who has used Windows update since last year and most have set WU to Never.
The “formula” for deciding to repair or replace has changed quite dramatically. New gets you Windows 10, which you do not want, so you spend lots to keep your system going. Repairs are in big time.
It may be important to note that all of the new computers sold in the last year or two, are licenced for Windows 10 and have stickers that say so on them. However, everyone I know who has bought one had Windows 7 installed. Those computers are probably counted as Windows 10 computers by someone.
I can only conclude that the buyers of Win10 are corporate and a few odd consumers who just are not tuned into anything related to the Windows scene. All of the business people I know, with a few exceptions, are worried about what they will do next when their Win7 business systems are no longer reliable.
Most people, including me, think that they probably will not buy another computer.
CT
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With the exception of Apple-lovers, they all have Windows 7 and have recently invested in efforts and hardware to assure its extended life. I don’t know of one person who has used Windows update since last year and most have set WU to Never.
Thanks for the insights. They certainly paint Windows 10 more and more as a way for Microsoft to end the desktop Personal Computer entirely and move the world – liking it or not – to an all-portable-device culture…
Those of us who create things and need real computers are the ones who will ultimately suffer. Computers could again become $10,000+ beasts, with software requiring heavy investment – as it was in the era before the PC.
Then only big companies like Microsoft, Google, et. al. will have the machinery to create software and content.
I’ve got spare workstation hardware already. I’ll certainly get more.
-Noel
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I was also being generous in Win 10’s favor with the statistics.
CT above has set that straight. You don’t see a lot of folks chiming in here agreeing with you, do you? Do they have to be folks who dislike sites like AskWoody.com to like Windows 10?
Windows 10 is – to be blunt – a flop. It’s been a fun toy for some, but a whole lot of people still need a serious computer operating system. It simply isn’t better than its predecessors at being a serious computer operating system.
Regarding business adoption, presuming the various releases are like the service packs of old, We’ve already been through SP2 and we’re almost to SP3. And the OS is still being used by only a minority of people overall?
Only the parts of the OS that Microsoft doesn’t let its programmers touch – e.g., the kernel – are still good. The whole Metro/Modern/UWP/Apps dumbed-down big-fonts layer is just a distracting toy. It might have been impressive in the 1970s or early 1980s… Now not so much. * Web sites have already been doing all those things for years.
-Noel
* I withhold my judgment on Apps in the Creator’s update. I haven’t seen it yet, and will be the first to call out the good should anything impressive be delivered.
That being said, I’m not looking forward to all the time and effort I’ll have to waste just to install it and test it.
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You don’t see a lot of folks chiming in here agreeing with you, do you? Do they have to be folks who dislike sites like AskWoody.com to like Windows 10?
Apparently so. Could you name another Windows site which reviles Windows 10 quite as much?
* I withhold my judgment on Apps in the Creator’s update. I haven’t seen it yet, and will be the first to call out the good should anything impressive be delivered.
Don’t forget to try the Calculator, after update.
That being said, I’m not looking forward to all the time and effort I’ll have to waste just to install it and test it.
I don’t really get why you bother, as it seems most unlikely that anything will change your mind.
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b, yes I can. Of all sites it is at http://www.answers.microsoft.com. Go into the Windows 7 section. There are many who revile Win10 and are looking for ways to keep their systems on Win7.
Note this is actually a Microsoft web site.
CT
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I don’t really get why you bother, as it seems most unlikely that anything will change your mind.
Reality is what drives my point of view, my friend. I’m immune to fashion and badgering.
If Microsoft makes good software, you’ll hear it from me. For years I’ve been an educated supporter – and critic – of Microsoft’s work. They’ve built the best operating system mankind has ever seen. I just wish they’d continue that work.
-Noel
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7.6.7600.320 is the only SelfUpdate version
other WUA version are delivered in separate updateslast standalone WUA update KB3138612
July 2016 rollup KB3172605 contains the latest non-blocked WUA
March 2017 Preview Monthly Rollup KB4012218 contains the blocked WUA, and will be included in all subsequent rollups (Security or Preview)1 user thanked author for this post.
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I thought Microsoft backtracked, in August of 2016, on ending support early for Intel Skylake processors?
That was what many of us including Woody thought at first.
According to Woody, we may have misunderstood. Microsoft has only said Skylake systems on this list will be supported to the end of original support dates. Other Skylake systems (such as those built by users themselves) may not receive the same support. Ed Bott even said that “Systems that aren’t on the supported list will lose access to updates for older Windows versions as of July 17, 2018.”
So it is possible that Skylake systems not on that list may not be supported to the end. Certainly Microsoft has only said that those systems on that list will be supported.
We don’t know what will happen come April or later for those systems. It will be interesting to watch.
Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.
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Dunno if someone thought of doing it already, but I just sent a note to that Law firm mentioned filing a lawsuit vs the win10 forced upgrade, pointing to them the current new issue.
Who knows, they may start a separate procedure, or revise and add to the current
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I don’t know if you could call it “promise” in any legal sense. But, they did publish a retraction referring to 6th gen processors. A lot of people took that as a go ahead and bought. Now they are conditioning their “promise.”
That leaves a lot of people in the cold and frankly angry is the only word to describe it.
It just smells of a fix of some sort. It feels all wrong. Like a huge bully pushing his way around rather than treating us like the people who put bread on their tables.
CT
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But which retraction got retracted?
Widely reported last August…
If you took the link (listed below) from the above page, on a first – and even a second – read, the text on the weasel-worded Microsoft page STILL sounds like they’re going to fully support Skylake processors for the rest of the Windows 7 and 8.1 support lifetimes.
https://blogs.windows.com/business/2016/08/11/updates-to-silicon-support-policy-for-windows/
If you actually followed the 2nd level link on THAT page through to find that the policy really only applies to certain OEMs, then you may not be human.
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/11675/windows-7-windows-8-1-skylake-systems-supported
A lawyer of course understands that the actual written policy is the bottom line. Normal humans by contrast would have read only Mary Jo Foley’s headline and maybe a few paragraphs.
-Noel
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I swear I will never buy another Microsoft product again as long as I live. The same applies to the many people who ask me for recommendations.
CT
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I swear I will never buy another Microsoft product again as long as I live. The same applies to the many people who ask me for recommendations.
And THAT is an example of what Microsoft gets for trying to use legalese to sound better than they are!
They don’t have any of my money either after I replaced an Office 365 subscription with a perpetual license for Office 2010. I care both whether the products are good and whether Microsoft can be a good business partner.
It’s going to add up and matter.
-Noel
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Tell your superiors that they got another one. Only this one will not be a victim again.
CT
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b says, “That link was also in the first article at “here’s the list of PCs that qualify”.
So it’s really a case of a few people not reading thoroughly enough before a major purchase rather than Microsoft reneging on any promise?”
Fyi, Intel Skylake processors were available for purchase by people from Aug 2015 onward. ( http://www.pcgamer.com/intel-skylake-processor-release-date-price/ )
For M$ to come out in Jan 2016 to announce premature support cut-off in July 2017 and a list of approved OEM devices for Win 7/8.1 users running Intel Skylake processors is very unfair, malicious and unethical, esp for those Win 7/8.1 users already using Skylake from Aug 2015 onward.
Why didn’t M$ make the announcement before the release of Intel Skylake processors in Aug 2015.? Likely, in Jan 2016, M$ wanted/intended to “trick”, trap and push as many affected Win 7/8.1 users as possible onto Win 10, in concert with their then aggressive GWX KB3035583 campaign against Win 7/8.1 users.1 user thanked author for this post.
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@ MrBrian
Those Skylake computers that made it into the Jan 2016 list were mostly high-end Enterprise/business PCs using the Intel vPro(‘Remote’ Management Engine) feature = most of the affected consumers and system-builders were left out in the cold.
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MS seems determined to transform itself from the acquaintance with occasionally annoying habits into the crazy person who causes other people to move to the next train car.
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GoneToPlaid, you could not be more right! Windows 8 was exactly what you called it. I decided that from day 1 of Windows 8. Windows 10 is nothing more than Win8 on Steroids. I wonder what you would call that…..
I have said it again and again. Windows 7 is the last Windows there will ever be and certainly the last one that I want to use.
CT
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James Bond, yes you may. My clients use Bitdefender Antivirus + 2015 exclusively. I will not work on them unless it is installed. This is not a whim. It is based on a lot of research and over 15 years of experience. I will provide you my general guidance that I provide all who ask me and on the Microsoft Answers forum:
Which Antivirus product to choose?
The “Security” software installed on your computer may be causing problems that can not be diagnosed or fixed. Try removing it temporarily.
This is a controversial topic, but your choice of AV software may be something you want to take a 2nd look at. I suggest you visit this web site to get a sense of which AV software does the best job, depending on what kind of user you are: http://www.av-comparatives.org/ This is a non-profit that has been around for a long time and I trust their results. Their latest report: https://www.av-comparatives.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/avc_prot_2016b_en.pdf The chart on page 8 is the most demonstrative of the differences.
When you interpret these results, keep in mind the difference between a product that detects 95% and another 99% of infections, is actually 5 times more likely to allow an infection.
I am speaking from a great deal of experience. I support 150 client computers. I have been doing this for 15 years. My clients NEVER have infections.
The only products I will use or recommend are ANTIVIRUS-ONLY products. Any product that is called complete protection, Internet security or deems itself to be a comprehensive security product is prohibited on my client computers.
I have good reason for this. Over the years and hundreds of PCs, I’ve learned a lesson well. That it is very difficult to diagnose and fix the problem(s) when components of an Internet Security product are actively working to prevent that diagnosis. The software sees the technician (me in this case) as a threat. I discovered that if I uninstalled that software, I am able to much more likely and quickly discover an fix the problem. Antivirus ONLY products do not behave like this.
The other components in these IS products (other than the AV itself) cause more problems than any benefit they bring and mostly work by shutting down the Windows component that does a very good job of that particular task anyway.
It is the Antivirus software that you need. It is actually all that you need with Windows 7.
Most of the big name suppliers much prefer to sell their all-in products because they can sell them for a higher price. Some do not offer an antivirus-only product. Some push their all in ones and still sell the AV only product, but you may have to look for them. There is at least one and it is either the best or close to it.
Beware of products that try to actively engage you in the security process by asking your permission to run a program named xd43_45d*.exe, or the like.
Do not use any product that claims to make your computer run better. Virtually all of them are either bogus, themselves an infection, or put your computer at risk. Remove everything that claims to be there to prevent infections or claims to make your computer run better, with the singular exception of just one antivirus product.
Note well. You should never have more than one protection product installed. Always ensure that you completely remove any and all protection software packages before installing a new one. That includes software that may have come pre-installed on your computer when new. Some products will conflict with one another, causing yet more problems.
You cannot fully remove most any AV software by simply using the standard Windows 7 uninstall tool. Most of the majors also publish a “removal tool” that gets the rest of it. If you do not completely remove it, it will cause very hard to understand and diagnose problems.
I should add that I frequently use ADWcleaner for removal of malware that gets by Bitdefender.
CT
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With regards to James Bond 007’s post about incidences of older CPUs being blocked by Windows Update, I am beginning to wonder if Microsoft is now blocking updates for computers with CPUs which were built before January 2011. See:
Intel left a fascinating security flaw in its chips for 16 years – here’s how to exploit it
Design flaw in Intel processors opens door to rootkits, researcher says
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I have a cpu from before 2011. I was able to check for Windows updates after installing the April 2017 monthly rollup and rebooting.
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I meant KB4012218 (Windows 7). Due to (another) error in the lounge system the last digit was deleted when I only wanted to delete a space. I only noticed it just now (it was after 10 P.M. yesterday when I posted that message and I am really a morning person
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Same thing was noted a week ago (see this post and subsequent discussion).
In addition, Karma isn’t always currently recording votes correctly – at best, it’s been an estimation for the last several days, and that’s not considering the time delay in votes converting to karma points in the first place.
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I doubt KB2592664 would be included in the Cumulative Rollups.
I imagine only a hard legal obstacle will stop that. Do you know of any?
-Noel
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They would included in Convenience Rollup if that’s the case
they need it separately, at least for usage by Upgrade Readiness Analytics
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Telemetry system is divided into 2 or 3 parts:
1- Unified Telemetry Client
the DiagTrack service, handles the diagnosis, tracking and logging
introduced in KB3068708/KB3080149, and now the Monthly Rollup2- Compatibility Appraiser
the actual telemetry controller and runner, handles the compatibility, upgrade evaluation, and device inventory
introduced in KB2952664/KB29769783- Telemetry Points
added for some components as collecting points, has no affect without 1 and/or 2
introduced in several updates4 users thanked author for this post.
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KB2952664 will not be included in Monthly Rollup
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