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  • Conflict between Win7/8.1 patches and Carrizo DDR4 machines

    Posted on April 11th, 2017 at 14:57 woody Comment on the AskWoody Lounge

    In today’s Security TechCenter release notes, there’s a sobering entry that looks like this:

    Symptom

    If the PC uses an AMD Carrizo DDR4 processor, installing this update (KB 4015549 (the Win7 Monthly Rollup), KB 4015546 (the Win7 Security-Only patch), KB 4015550 (the Win8.1 Monthly Rollup), KB 4015547 (the Win8.1 Security-Only patch) will block downloading and installing future Windows updates.

    Workaround / Resolution

    Microsoft is working on a resolution and will provide an update in an upcoming release.

    Sound familiar? On March 22 I wrote about Microsoft’s reprehensible approach to forcing Win7 and 8.1 off the newer 7th generation Kaby Lake/Ryzen processors.

    Two days later I pointed folks to companies that are maintaining lists of supported PCs — ones that wouldn’t run afoul of the blocked updating. At the time I said:

    I don’t know what Microsoft intends to do with AMD chips. The way the announcements stand, AMD Bristol Ridge PCs won’t have Win7 or 8.1 support, and there’s no magic list of manufacturers or machines that are exempt from the ruling.

    Now it appears we have a real-world example of a supposedly-protected 6th generation chip, AMD’s Carrizo, which got zapped by the 7th generation police.

    Microsoft’s own Lifecycle Policy FAQ says:

    What is the support policy for prior generations of processors and chipsets on Windows 7 or Windows 8.1?

    Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 will continue to be supported for security, reliability, and compatibility on prior generations of processors and chipsets under the standard lifecycle for Windows. This includes most devices available for purchase today by consumers or enterprises and includes generations of silicon such as AMD’s Carrizo [emphasis added] and Intel’s Broadwell and Haswell silicon generations.

    (Thx @radosuaf)

    Even more distressing: It looks like this obnoxious behavior extends to both the Monthly Rollup patches (which I expected) and to the Security-only patches (which I did not).

    What a massive screw-up.

    (Can anybody point me to a commercial machine that uses Carrizo with DDR4?)

    If that helped, take a second to support AskWoody on Patreon

    Home Forums Conflict between Win7/8.1 patches and Carrizo DDR4 machines

    This topic contains 28 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  woody 5 months, 3 weeks ago.

    • Author
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    • #107625 Reply

      woody
      Da Boss

      In today’s Security TechCenter release notes, there’s a sobering entry that looks like this: Symptom If the PC uses an AMD Carrizo DDR4 processor, ins
      [See the full post at: Conflict between Win10 patches and Carrizo DDR4 machines]

    • #107677 Reply

      Chris M
      AskWoody Lounger

      In my mind, this basically translates to DEFCON 1 if you have Windows 7.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #107683 Reply

        anonymous

        I agree. I’d probably set it to DEFCON 1. Also if Microsoft wasn’t so h*** bent on blocking updates on new hardware then this wouldn’t even be a problem.

      • #107714 Reply

        James Bond 007
        AskWoody Lounger

        In my mind, this basically translates to DEFCON 1 if you have Windows 7.

        I am inclined to agree with you. I will stop patching my Windows 7 and 8.1 machines from now on. I shall see what happens and then decide if it is time to go to Group C and completely stop patching. I would prefer not installing the CPU blocking code if possible. Who knows if this buggy code won’t block Windows Update on systems based on CPUs other than Carrizo / Kaby Lake / Ryzen and/or cause other problems?

        Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

        • #107725 Reply

          anonymous

          I wouldn’t be surprised if this becomes a big enough problem and causes Microsoft to reverse the CPU blocking thing. What I would do is let users install updates on Skylake, Kaby Lake, Ryzen and any other unsupported CPUs and make it clear to users that Microsoft is not responsible for any problems that might arise with updates on unsupported hardware.

          But I want to remind everyone that Windows 7 and 8.1 won’t be around forever. I do not agree with how Microsoft is going about trying to get people onto Windows 10, but they’d rather do it soon instead of later. Also Microsoft isn’t selling Windows 7 or 8.1 anymore. You can still find it for sale in some places, but once that inventory runs out then that’s it. Windows 10 will be the only choice.

          Also I believe that with Windows 7 being under extended support they don’t even have to offer support on newer hardware. I could be wrong. 8.1 however still being under mainstream should be getting supported on Ryzen and Kaby Lake. But it isn’t.

          Also Windows 10 has become a very decent operating system with the past couple upgrades. The Creators Update is actually quite good. Back in 2015 and 2016 I would never have even touched Windows 10, but it’s become something I’d actually be fine with using as my regular OS.

          So while I understand why people are upset over Windows 7 not getting support from Microsoft on Kaby Lake and Ryzen chips, you got to remember that Windows 7 is a nearly 8 year OS on hardware from 2016/2017. Like you’re trying to run an OS on hardware it wasn’t designed for. And it’s not sold anymore either.

          Also does Intel have Windows 7 or 8.1 drivers for Kaby Lake? I know AMD has Windows 7 drivers for Ryzen. I don’t know if they have any for 8.1. If Intel and AMD want to support Windows on their new CPUs then that’s their choice, but Microsoft won’t be offering support. If you want to stick with 7 or 8.1 then you’re gonna have to go with Haswell or the current Ryzen chips. But just remember Windows 7 will be gone one day.

          • #107756 Reply

            James Bond 007
            AskWoody Lounger

            Also does Intel have Windows 7 or 8.1 drivers for Kaby Lake? I know AMD has Windows 7 drivers for Ryzen. I don’t know if they have any for 8.1. If Intel and AMD want to support Windows on their new CPUs then that’s their choice, but Microsoft won’t be offering support. If you want to stick with 7 or 8.1 then you’re gonna have to go with Haswell or the current Ryzen chips. But just remember Windows 7 will be gone one day.

            Motherboard manufacturers like Gigabyte provide Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 (for 8.1 it is 64 bit only it seems) drivers for their Kaby Lake motherboards. So it is perfectly possible to run Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 on a non-OEM Kaby Lake system (using a discrete graphics card since Intel does not provide Windows 7 / 8.1 drivers for the Kaby Lake iGPU). And you can also run Windows 7 or 8.1 on a Skylake system since there is full driver support also. Your statement that “If you want to stick with 7 or 8.1 then you’re gonna have to go with Haswell or the current Ryzen chips.” is simply not true.

            And I don’t think you should care about “Microsoft support” if you want to run Windows 7 or Windows 8.1 on a Kaby Lake / Ryzen system. Microsoft is apparently blocking these users from installing any kind of updates from now on (including from Windows Update and the Update Catalog), judging from the current situation, which means essentially no more support. I know I won’t care myself if I am to upgrade to a Ryzen system. My main system is X99 and while I won’t change that, I MIGHT consider upgrading one of my secondary systems to Ryzen and I will run Windows 7 on it if the upgrade plan goes ahead.

            Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

            1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #107763 Reply

            anonymous

            @ anonymous#107725

            MS are paving a slippery road for Windows users by stopping updates for older Windows OS with an update that detects the latest hardware.
            Windows Update is like extortionary ransomware, ie ”get Win 10 or else” = more “ransom” money$$$$ for M$.

            Imagine, MS going further by not providing similar update-support to Win 7/8.1 users who are using NVMe or “7th generation” SSDs(eg using SATA SSDs and HDDs), DDR4 RAM memory, OEM computers that came with the more ‘modern’ UEFI/GPT technology(and not the older BIOS/MBR technology), USB 3.0 ports(eg USB 2.0), HDMI displays(eg VGA), etc, … ie only such Win 10 users will receive update-support from MS.

          • #107802 Reply

            woody
            Da Boss

            That’s an approach I call “hardware detente” and it just makes sense in this situation. Two thumbs up.

      • #107715 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        MS-DEFCON 1 for Win7 and 8.1 users. I’ll adjust the level in the morning, unless something redeeming appears overnight.

        2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #107729 Reply

          anonymous

          I do feel that if updates are getting blocked on a supported CPU that it should be an automatic DEFCON 1. Here’s a thought. Isn’t Carrizo an AMD chip? AMD provided Windows 7 drivers on Ryzen, so maybe this is Microsoft’s way of getting back at AMD.

      • #107733 Reply

        anonymous

        So much for a “security only” update including only security fixes. I had a bad feeling when folks were discussing the new update code designed to block WU based on processor generation. I knew this code would end up in the April, 2017 Security Monthly Quality Rollup, but I was hoping (against hope) that it would be omitted from the April, 2017 Security Only Quality Update.

        Good thing I’m not a gambling man.

        I suppose I should’ve seen it coming, that Microsoft would include this code in the Security Only update. I mean, after all, they can’t have us Group B rebels opting out of the processor detection so we can run Windows 7/8.1 on Kaby Lake and Ryzen. No siree!

        Honestly, at this point, I kinda don’t trust the Security Only updates anymore. I’ve been a card-carrying member of Group B since the GWX campaign started in early 2015, and I’ve been following (religiously) the manual updates of the Security Only Quality Updates since October. But now…if they are slipping this non-security non-critical update in a Security Only update, what’s to say they won’t do it again with something else?

        I’m pretty much done trusting Microsoft.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #107764 Reply

          radosuaf
          AskWoody Lounger

          My thoughts exactly.

          MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1050 Ti D5 4G * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 8.1 Pro 64-bit + Windows 10 Mobile 1607 (Lumia 735)
        • #107819 Reply

          Noel Carboni
          AskWoody MVP

          I’m pretty much done trusting Microsoft.

          My date for that was in June, 2015, the day I discovered they had installed GWX in my fresh Windows 7 installation in April, 2015.

          Trust is easier to destroy than it is to build. Incredible as it seemed, Microsoft embarked on a plan to use up the reputation their company had built over a lifetime.

          And they have done so more adeptly than almost anything else they have ever done.

          I only rarely, over my entire career (which spans 4 decades and a little more – longer than Microsoft has been around), installed Windows Updates the day they were released. Generally speaking, partnering with Microsoft brought us both value. Now I only rarely install Windows Updates at all. The risk is simply growing higher than the reward.

          -Noel

          1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #107705 Reply

      lurks about
      AskWoody Lounger

      Does MS even test their patches?

      • #107710 Reply

        James Bond 007
        AskWoody Lounger

        Does MS even test their patches?

        In this case, I believe they (or someone else) did test, otherwise they won’t know about this Carrizo problem.

        The problem is, IMO, they still choose to release the updates even though they know about this problem. Perhaps they thought the number of people affected by this issue is “so small” that it will be unwise to pull the updates?

        Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

    • #107722 Reply

      James Bond 007
      AskWoody Lounger

      Woody, do we know anything about the IE security update (KB4014661) this month at this time? Is the same buggy CPU blocking code included in this update or not?

      Please keep us informed.

      I have been thinking that Microsoft will COMPLETELY block Kaby Lake / Ryzen systems from installing ANY and ALL updates starting from April after what the preview rollup showed us last month. Therefore I am not surprised at all that Microsoft includes the CPU blocking code in both the “Security Quality Rollup” and the “Security Only Rollup”. My initial reaction on seeing this is “Just as I thought”.

      But what I did not foresee is that Microsoft would block systems based on supposedly older CPUs, “in error”. However, perhaps I should not be so surprised at Microsoft’s code causing such problems now, knowing Microsoft’s records in the patching area. Perhaps what we shall worry about is that whether this buggy code will block systems based on CPUs other than Carrizo / Kaby Lake / Ryzen / Bristol Ridge, and/or cause other problems.

      Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

    • #107708 Reply

      anonymous

      How do I check to see if my laptop has this processor?

      • #107769 Reply

        The Surfing Pensioner
        AskWoody Lounger

        To Anonymous at 12.53 am: I went to Start – Search programs and files – and typed in ‘processor’. I was given the option to check my processor speed and following this link gave me all the info’ I needed. Hope it works for you, too.

      • #107770 Reply

        radosuaf
        AskWoody Lounger

        Win+Break

        MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1050 Ti D5 4G * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 8.1 Pro 64-bit + Windows 10 Mobile 1607 (Lumia 735)
        • #107846 Reply

          anonymous

          I saw that my processor is Intel(R) Core i5 processor so I should be fine right? Especially since my laptop is manufactured in 2009.

    • #107794 Reply

      jescott418
      AskWoody Lounger

      Obvious to me Microsoft is in collusion with chip makers on locking down hardware to Windows 10. While I think some new chips may not fully support a older OS like Windows 7. Its obvious Microsoft is purposely breaking them to push their OS agenda as I call it.

      • This reply was modified 6 months, 1 week ago by  jescott418.
      • #107870 Reply

        Cybertooth
        AskWoody Lounger

        Looks like Linux looms large, long-term.

        OK, I ran out of alliterative words… The point is that those of us who object to Microsoft and its partners telling us what operating systems we may use on which processors, may ultimately be happier on a platform where, if anything, there is too much choice. Better that than too little choice.

        …That is, until Wintel tries to lock out Linux from some future generation of CPUs.

         

    • #107843 Reply

      anonymous

      According to these links ……. http://www.anandtech.com/show/10223/amd-bristol-ridge-in-notebooks and
      http://www.anandtech.com/show/10362/amd-7th-generation-apu-bristol-ridge-stoney-ridge-for-notebooks
      the Bristol Stoney aka AMD Carrizo DDR4 APU(Accelerated Processor Unit) which was launched in May 2016 is considered as the 7th generation AMD APU which is low-powered(= 35W max) and meant for mobile laptops and 2-in-1 tablets(= no need ventilation fans ?). In comparison, the high-powered AMD Ryzen 7th-gen CPU meant for desktops was launched in March 2017.
      The AMD Carrizo non-DDR4 APU is 6th-gen. These terms can be confusing.

      Seems, MS were just head-strong on blocking Windows 7/8.1 Updates for all processors that are tagged as 7th generation.

    • #107916 Reply

      anonymous

      So is there anyone left who still doesn’t believe that the “wait forever” checking for updates for Windows 7 since the release of Windows 10 (and now Windows 8.1 for about the last 9 months) wasn’t deliberate sabotage by Microsoft in an attempt to get as many people onto Windows 10 as possible?

      For me, the proof came when Windows 8.1 started having exactly the same update trouble at about the middle of last year as Windows 7 was having. Almost as if someone “flicked a switch” at MS. All the hoo-ha about “supercedence of updates” was just a MS smokescreen in my opinion.

      The final proof (once again, in my opinion) is the fact that MS isn’t supporting newer processors with updates with Windows 8.1 even though, as others have said, it is still in mainstream support.

      I have just bought a new Gigabyte motherboard with a 7th generation processor. No Windows 7 drivers, of course. And (presumably) no Windows updates even if there were. I don’t need to assemble and use it just yet – still need to get a new power supply and case. But, it looks like it might have to be a dual boot with an offline Windows 10 (after activation) and online Linux.

      (This is Carl D who’s posted here a few times in the past)

       

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #108039 Reply

        anonymous

        The slow update scan on a clean Windows 7 SP1 or 8.1 install goes a lot faster I find if you install their latest servicing stack updates and July 2016 rollups. I currently find that to be the magic combo. Download them from the Microsoft Update catalog, disconnect from the internet and install them. Then reconnect to the internet and your update scans should hopefully only take a few minutes. Also remember that the version of Windows Update in Wind0ws 7 SP1 is from 6 years ago. The version of Windows Update in Windows 8.1 is from about 3 years ago. That’s why it takes forever.

        It’s not Microsoft sabotaging the operating systems, or a ploy to get you onto Windows 10, it’s simply the servicing stacks and update clients on 7 and 8.1 are years old. Not every problem with Windows 7 or Windows 8.1 is a Microsoft ploy to get you to Windows 10. I really wish people would stop thinking that way. I notice some people here on AskWoody seem to jump to conclusions too fast. Like I’ll see Woody make a post “Issue of the day with Windows 7” then I’ll see comments saying that it’s Microsoft sabotaging Windows 7 in order to get you onto Windows 10.

        I’m not trying to be rude, but thinking every issue with Windows 7 is some deliberate setup by Microsoft to get you onto Windows 10 is kind of closed minded and ignorant if you ask me. Updates break stuff, it happens. Does it mean Microsoft did it deliberately? No. Does it mean a buggy update is a ploy to get you to go to Windows 10? No. Don’t want Windows 10? Don’t use Windows 10. I will agree Microsoft has gone too far trying to get people onto Windows 10 with forced upgrades, and blocking updates on newer hardware, but doesn’t mean everything they do is something to get you onto Windows 10.

         

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #108101 Reply

        James Bond 007
        AskWoody Lounger

        I have just bought a new Gigabyte motherboard with a 7th generation processor. No Windows 7 drivers, of course. And (presumably) no Windows updates even if there were. I don’t need to assemble and use it just yet – still need to get a new power supply and case. But, it looks like it might have to be a dual boot with an offline Windows 10 (after activation) and online Linux.

        (This is Carl D who’s posted here a few times in the past)

        Have you bought a Kaby Lake or Ryzen motherboard? If it is either of these, you can download Windows 7 drivers from Gigabyte’s website. Find your exact model of motherboard and under “Support” you should be able to find the appropriate drivers.

        Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

    • #108033 Reply

      anonymous

      A lot of people I know would be thrilled to have their updates blocked. What Microsoft had did with the free upgrade had startled everyone I know. They still think they’ll get Windows 10 from Windows Update. So for some individuals I know, if their updates got blocked they’d be happy about it.

      Microsoft forces people to update on Windows 10, but now on Windows 7 and 8.1 they’re doing the exact opposite. Some might view it as a good thing that updates are getting blocked. Usually updates will either break something, give you trash you don’t want like telemetry aka spyware or “free upgrades” that is similar to malware. Like seriously. The free upgrade thing. I had never seen anything so hard to remove. The updates at that point was the malware.

      Also why did Windows 7 update give me Skype? I didn’t even have that installed prior to running updates. So Microsoft you want to prevent me from getting your spyware, buggy updates, Skype, free upgrade offers, and other trash? GOOD! BECAUSE I DON’T WANT THEM!

    • #108635 Reply

      yuhong
      AskWoody Lounger

      Yea, there is no such thing as “Carrizo DDR4”. Carrizo is DDR3-only.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #111447 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        It looks like whomever wrote the KB article was relying on Speccy to identify the chip.

    Please follow the -Lounge Rules- no personal attacks, no swearing, and politics/religion are relegated to the Rants forum.

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